102. Win the War Within: Spencer Coursen on Healing PTSD with Psilocybin & Ibogaine

In this powerful conversation, Spencer Coursen, veteran, threat management expert, bestselling author, and host of Coursen’s Corner, opens up about the journey from trauma to healing, and what it truly means to “win the war within.”

Spencer opens up about his journey from childhood abuse and combat trauma to finding triumph through various healing modalities. We explore the critical differences between instinct and intuition, the "pussification" of the modern male, and how to build authentic self-confidence. Spencer also shares the story behind his darkest moment, the service dog who saved his life, his profound experiences with psychedelics (Psilocybin and Ibogaine), and how they catalyzed integrating years of therapy into true healing.

Whether you are a veteran, a survivor of childhood trauma, or someone looking to strengthen your mental resilience, this video provides a roadmap for moving from a "badge of trauma" to a "lighthouse of hope." Watch until the end to hear Spencer’s incredible dragon story and his advice on dating, setting boundaries, and why honoring your instincts is a radical act of self-protection.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn About:
- Complex PTSD and how "big T" and "little T" traumas compound
- How Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) helps reframe past perspectives
- The role of Psilocybin and Ibogaine in healing deep-seated shame and guilt
- The vital distinction between Safety vs. Security and Fear vs. Anxiety
- Practical tips for men on building authentic masculinity and for women on vetting partners by honoring instincts

Spencer’s new book, Winning the War Within, releases June 26, 2026.

If you have ever wondered what heals trauma or how to navigate the long road of healing from Complex PTSD (CPTSD), this deep dive offers both professional insight and raw, personal experience.

Connect with Spencer:
Website: https://www.spencercoursen.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/s.coursen/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxwzst3QHsORLLRzluNw7s6LW0G_O6HZc
The Safety Trap on Amazon: https://www.spencercoursen.com/the-safety-trap

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Transcript

Kristin: 0:00

Welcome to Sex, Drugs, and Soul, the sacred sensual space for wild ones, truth tellers, taboo dancers, and revels with soul. I'm your host, Kristen Birdwell, best-selling author, mystic, tantrica, and professional line blurrer between the profane and the profound. For years I thought I had to choose be the good girl or the wild one, be spiritual or sensual, polished or powerful. But I've learned the magic lives in the both and and the mess, the mystery, the mischief, and in embracing our messy humanness. This podcast is where healing gets real. Self-discovery gets juicy, and shame gets kicked to the damn curve. Whether I'm flying solo or vibing with fellow seekers, healers, experts, and pleasure revolutionaries, we dive deep into the beautifully messy intersection of spirituality, sexuality, and self-expression. Because your body isn't too much. Your story isn't too messy, and your truth, that's holy. Ah, welcome back, guys, to another episode of Sex, Drugs, and Soul. Today I get to flip the script on Spencer Corson. He is a threat management expert, best-selling author of The Safety Trap. He is also a podcast host of Corson's Corner, right? Corson's Corner. That's what I thought. I was on it.

Spencer: 1:30

Harped out a little niche for myself.

Kristin: 1:31

Yes, it's great. So I love that I get to like ask you some questions and just chit-chat.

Spencer: 1:36

It's so much better being on this side of the of the because I just have to show up. Yeah. There's no prep involved. You're gonna ask me some questions. Hopefully I won't make a fool of myself. No, I don't think you will at all. Also, congratulations on 100 episodes.

Kristin: 1:47

Thank you.

Spencer: 1:48

People don't understand how hard it is to get to episode 100. But that's what I mean, that puts you in like the 0.01% of all podcasters ever. It's in the it's the statistics are wild. I if you like go back through my Instagram, I did a story or like a carousel about it. But it's something like if you've done seven episodes, or so if you've done eight, if you've gone past seven, you're in the top ten percent of all podcasts ever. If you get to twenty-one, you're in like the top one percent. And if you get to a hundred, you're in like the top oh one percent. Wow. Because it is so hard to come up with content on a week to week or bi-weekly basis that can sustain itself and an audience for for that long. Yeah. So congratulations.

Kristin: 2:33

Thank you. I'm only in episode like 92. Well, no, you're I know I was like, you're right. You're like on the tail. You got the yeah, yeah. We'll take any weeks off because I was planning on taking December off, but we'll see.

Spencer: 2:44

Oh, I have I I I'm recording, I'm not recording this week, I've been recording two next week, and then I'm taking off until January.

Kristin: 2:52

Yeah. Like I feel we've got we've got to give ourselves that time to rest and reach.

Spencer: 2:56

Do you do yours by season? Or like did you have been.

Kristin: 2:58

I haven't. And I've got some other ideas percolating around where I want to like get some questions from people or like things that they're seeking advice on, and maybe do some different like little segments.

Spencer: 3:10

I just want to start interviewing. Yeah. But did you always want to do a podcast?

Kristin: 3:13

No, I'm like, hey, stop.

Spencer: 3:14

Stop.

Kristin: 3:14

No. Okay. Yeah.

Spencer: 3:15

Ask away. Fireway. Question one.

Kristin: 3:17

Oh yeah. Question one. No, it's like my signature question. And I've been asking every guest. And it's what's turning you on right now or making you feel the most alive in the present moment.

Spencer: 3:27

Ooh. So right now I am in final edits for my next book. And it was the manuscript was due in October. It was due to October 17th. And when I turned it in, I was happy with it. It was much better than my proposal. So what I turned in was better than what I pitched. But it's not better than the version that's in my head. And that's of course an ever, an ever-moving goalpost. So when I turned it in to my publisher, they were saying, listen, it's either going to come out in April or June. And I said, if I have a choice, I would like to go for June. I would like to take another pass. So they came back to me a couple weeks ago and they said, Hey, we're going to we're going to push it out in June. You can have until January 5th if there's anything you want to tighten up. And this book is is is very personal. My first book was kind of like about my clients and the kind of the troubles, trials, and tribulations that they faced. And, you know, here's what happened, here's how it was allowed to happen, here's how you can keep it from happening to you. This is my story. My my journey. It's called uh uh uh winning the war within, my journey from triumph uh from My Journey from Trauma to Triumph. And so as uh effective and therapeutic and and as um cathartic as therapy, traditional and and and and and newer modalities have been, writing this book has been its own kind of process.

Kristin: 4:51

Oh, for a five year old.

Spencer: 4:52

And so every time I sit down to get to craft it, it's yeah. Like if this book can save even one life, it it's worth it.

Kristin: 5:01

Yeah. It sounds like it's already helped one, like yours on the whole throughout the whole journal. 100%?

Spencer: 5:06

Yeah. And it's been um it's been interesting how that process has also kind of like opened other avenues to explore in my own life. Like to go more from um more from like the warrior protector to like the elder statesman.

Kristin: 5:24

And kind of being more of the kind of wise like the Yeah.

Spencer: 5:28

Like Did you ever watch The West Wing?

Kristin: 5:32

Uh a couple maybe a few episodes.

Spencer: 5:35

So in that show, there's this uh character who's the uh the chief of staff, Leo McGarry. And then there's like the deputy chief of staff, this guy, Josh Lyman. And um the Leo McGarry character was uh a Vietnam pilot and he was an alcoholic and he was he had you know worked through his own some of his own PTSD demons. And earlier in that show, uh there had been an attack on the president, and this guy, Josh Lyman, had gotten shot by an uh uh by a bullet from uh from a would-be assassin. And it's Christmas time, and the bells and those songs remind him of the sirens, and he starts having these like PTSD flashbacks, and he sends this and he has Josh talked to a therapist that helps him realize what he's going through, and Josh comes out and he's and Leo McGuire is standing there, and he's like, How did you know? He's like, he tells him this this this anecdote. He's like, So a guy's walking down the street and he falls into a hole. He's like, Man, like how did this happen? Like, I I can't get out. Guy's down there for days, he's surrounded by darkness, he nothing's working. A little while later, his his priest walks by. Hey, father, it's me, can you help me out? The priest looks down, makes the sign of the cross, writes out a prayer, throws it down in the hole. He's like, Well, thanks. A little while later, his doctor walks by. Hey, Doc, it's me. Can you help me out? Doctor looks down, takes out his prescription pad, writes, writes out a script, throws it down in the hole. He's like, Man, I am screwed. A little while later, his friend walks by. Hey, Joe, it's me. Can you help me out? Joe jumps down in the hole. And our guy goes, Well, now we're both stuck down here. Joe goes, Yeah, but I've been down here before, and I can show you the way out. I think a lot of my life I was the doctor. I was the priest. Hey, I overcame this. Why can't you do the same? And having come out the other side, now I want to be the guy that jumps down in the hole and says, Hey, let me show you the way out.

Kristin: 7:25

That brings tears to my eyes. Um that's beautiful. And um there's a couple of things that like pop up or percolated. Um so I'm curious if your book goes all the way back, like to childhood. And I'm also curious, like, would that little boy like know, or did he expect what was all to come throughout the years to get to where you are today? Like kind of like what would you tell him now?

Spencer: 7:49

Yeah. So whereas uh the first book, the safety trap, was kind of like the book that I or protectors would need as they're entering into that space, this is the book that uh me coming out of the service needed. Um but yeah, so the first it's broken into thirds, um, and it's basically trauma, healing, and integration. The first third is the childhood abuse and the abandonment and and the combat and the PTSD. The middle third is my um my journey with cognitive behavioral therapy and psilocybin and ibegaine and some other um medicinal uh medicines. And then the third part is integration, right? Because so much of therapy is like, yeah, you can get the takeaways, but if you're not integrating those lessons, how what what good are they? And so it's kind of framed as a come for the story but stay for the lesson framing. But that final third is broken down into three parts. The first part is uh authentic self-confidence, the second part is uh protecting what matters most, and the third part is authentic masculinity, because I think that's kind of lost our way in I think the pussification of the American male might be part of the problem. Aaron Ross Powell I love that.

Kristin: 9:01

I would love to go there too. Before we before we go to pussification of the men, because I agree. Um I'd like to circle back to some of the PTSD stuff. Sure. Um like I feel like there would be like some maybe PTSD from some of those traumatic childhood experiences, and coupled with like you were in the military, um, I would love to s um ask you like what helped. Um and I know you mentioned like psilocybin and abigaine.

Spencer: 9:25

Yeah. So um so we have big T's and we have little T's, right? And as big T's and little T's compound over space and time, you get what's called complex PTSD. I'm not a psychologist. Thank God my sister was.

Kristin: 9:38

Oh, nice.

Spencer: 9:39

Yeah, no, oh my it was it was it was really a uh um a fortuitous turn of events. So And like I remember the first time I really knew I had PTSD was the Killers album came out. And I think it's Mr. Brightside, is it Brightside?

Kristin: 10:02

I think so. I've got soul. And I know that song is on there.

Spencer: 10:05

So at the end it goes, I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier.

Kristin: 10:08

Wait, repeat that?

Spencer: 10:09

There's a phrase at the end of that song, there's a good dun d'cause I got soul, but I'm not a soldier. And I started singing that, I was like, oh fuck. And I just remember like I don't know if I was like driving somewhere and just like tears as I like sang that that cadence. Um and I don't remember how it ends, but it's like uh when everything's lost, the battle is won with all these things I've uh all these things that I've done. And I was like, oh fuck. All right. So like I knew I had like lingering things. And then, you know, that compounds over space and time. And I was uh I was professionally a protector. So I had basically pivoted that warrior ethos into uh a protector modality. And I had been doing it for so long that like I really didn't know who I was outside of that uh being called to service. And then when COVID happened, that we all like kind of like went into like isolation. Me not being able to be of service to anyone else was like, oh, okay, well then who am I without that that identity? And then the withdrawal to Afghanistan went to shit. And that I spiraled even uh further down, and then I was drinking very heavily um because I was having these recurring nightmares anytime I closed my eyes, and being drunk kept me from going into REM sleep. And so it was almost like this um this way to self-medicate. And then one night um I was like, I knew I was gonna I knew I was gonna eat my gun. And I was like, well, uh you know, actors do it. Like, can I put a gun in my mouth? And so I you know, c c cleared it. Yep, can do that. Uh and I have a service dog, and so I would always like make sure he was crated up while I was doing this stuff. And um, well, can I do it loaded? Yep, I can do it loaded. And then um one night I got really uh in a dark place, and as I went to put the gun into my mouth to do it, uh Rodan laid down across my arm to stop me. And uh I hugged him so hard that he farted. And that kind of brought brought both of us out of it. But the very next day I was on TV um talking about the withdrawal to Afghanistan and the impact it was having on veterans and soldiers. And I was like, hey, it's the strong ones that you need to reach out to. It's like the ones that are, it's those the ones who um who are always be there for you, but they don't have it. I'll use I statements. I didn't have it within myself to ask for help. But Ronan was laying across my feet during the interview. And my sister, who's a psychologist at the Naval Academy, knows that this was one of his grounding signs. And so she uh calls me up after seeing the interview. She's hey, great interview. Really loved what you had to say. Um, who are you talking to? And I was like, No one, why? And she goes, Well, well, if you're gonna be like telling your brothers that like it's okay to not be okay, and you know, there's there's something like, don't you think you should know what that's like? I was like, Oh, that's a great idea. She's like, I'm gonna put you in touch with something. And so that's what started my because she knew I wouldn't do it for me, but I would do it for someone else.

Kristin: 13:20

And so it was a really glad you have your sister in your corner. Wow.

Spencer: 13:24

100%. Yeah. And uh my mom would call us her. She goes, she's the I have three younger sisters and she's the youngest, so I'm the oldest. So my mom always always like called us her bookends.

Kristin: 13:32

Yeah.

Spencer: 13:33

And um, we've always been very close and she's always known how to uh I don't think I'm the reason she became a psychologist, but I mean I mean, did you tease her growing up?

Kristin: 13:44

Okay.

Spencer: 13:46

There was something on Instagram the other day where it's like, remember like childhood memories where it's like, yeah, remember when you used to chase me around with a cleaver? Like that was such a great childhood. It's like, yeah, that was tell me you had childhood trauma without telling me.

Kristin: 13:57

Yeah, I remember my brother like threw up frisbee and knocked me in the nose. He's like, Oh my god, I'll let and it like started bleeding. He's like, I'll let you play with me and my friends if you don't tell mom. Right. I was like, I thought he was so cool. Listen to the best music, like um, just had it all together. Yeah. I thought.

Spencer: 14:14

Family is is can be like, you know, a saving grace, and it could also be like the knife that just keeps getting twisted. Because like even today, like I'll go back to like family functions and by any metric, I've become pretty successful in my chosen. But like my Antonal, how's that security thing going for you? Is that is that working out? Like you're doing okay? And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's a grind. Um yeah, but it's it's kind of funny. And I'll try to do that. People that know you at like at a certain point in your life, that's all they ever see you as, despite your evolution over space and time. Aaron Powell Yeah.

Kristin: 14:51

Peter Cron said something about that. And I was just mentioning it on a conversation before here. It's like sometimes when we go back, they hold us to versions of ourselves that we used to be and like don't give us the permission or space to be who we are today. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. And we probably do the same to them. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, totally.

Spencer: 15:07

I mean, we probably your outlook is informed by your experience. And so if you are not with someone on that I mean, think about like a high school reunion, right? You haven't seen these people in 20 years, you go back and in your mind, they're still the class clown or the comic or the mascot, right? Even though they may have had a a whole separate journey outside of that um relationship to you.

Kristin: 15:32

Mm-hmm. Oh, for sure. Okay.

Spencer: 15:34

So you when you go to start start going to therapy, at what point did you do like the therapeutic like uh so I had been anti-drug uh because my biological father had a drug problem. And so I was very anti-drug um my entire life. Never tried weed, I never did anything. I drank because that was like, I guess what was socially acceptable. Um and like they often talk about like my, you know, my godfather having like a flask over the baptismal basin of Jameson that was kind of like uh I was literally baptized in it. Um But my therapist was like because I was having a hard time sleeping, I was like, I had those things. He's like, You ever try weed? And I was like, No. He's like, I think you should try weed. And so I uh I don't know where I was like in Colorado or Vegas or something, and I went to like a the uh uh like a dispensary and got like a vape pen. And um and I was like, oh, this is great. Because I also have like horrible ADHD, so with like the Vivance and the Adderall, like keeping up. So but like take a couple poops of that, it would put my seat. It was like, oh, this is fantastic. So that began like the reframing of my um my relationship with uh with drugs of any kind that okay, it's like it's it's how it's like alcohol. Like it can how you use it is is is one thing. Um and so I went through it was supposed to be 12 and then I was 16. That was like 22 weeks of cognitive behavioral therapy, which was really great for helping me to reframe the expectations that my mind had of things. So if I was gonna like if you had asked me about my childhood, I'd be like, oh, my childhood was horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what that kind of therapy helped me to do was, okay, so if like there's a pizza that's on a table and two of those pieces fell on the floor, yeah, that's bad, right? And I was only focusing on those two pieces of pieces. But like my childhood and total was pretty great. Right. Uh same thing with like combat. Like there were dark days, but overall it was pretty great. Like when so it the best way I can explain it to someone who hasn't gone through it is um there was like a sheet in front of my face. And then and I had cut a little hole in that sheet. And my that was my aperture, that was my prism for how I saw everything. And what CBT helped to do was take that sheet down so that I could then see the big picture, right? I could see how everything tied together. Oh, okay, it was this, this, this, this, this. Yeah. But it didn't do anything to help heal like the shame or the guilt. So a buddy of mine um is uh well-versed in the journey space. And he's like, hey, I I'm gonna go do this plant medicine uh retreat. Would you like to uh to come with me? And uh, sure. And it wasn't psilocybin or it wasn't anything, it was just like plant medicine. And I remember going in and sitting down and the facilitator, we know we did the ceremony, and the facilitator gives me my first dose, and um we sit down and she's like, How are you feeling? And I was like, Fine, like how am I supposed to be feeling? She's like, Well, it's not about like how you're supposed to be feeling, it's like how do you feel? And I was like, I really don't know. She's like, Okay, like come sit down. Um She's like, Why don't you just like lean back, like close your eyes? And she uh she was like, Take a breath. I was like She was like, No, like take a deep breath. And I went And that was the first deep breath I had taken in 20 years. And I had this like chronic pain in my shoulder that would like radiate up up my neck. Doctors couldn't find MRIs, x-rays, nothing. As soon as I took that first breath, it went away. Like years of pain just gone. And so that was my first introduction to like the body keeping the score. And I remember like tears coming down my face, being like, I can breathe. And I was like so afraid that it was just gonna be like while I was like high on the drugs, and so it's like I'd be like going to the bathroom, be like, take a deep breath just to make sure I could still do it. And so I was like, okay, there might be something to this um to this uh this this psychedelic thing. And then um uh a fellow veteran um told me about uh Ibogaine. And I went down to Mexico and I did an Ibogaine journey, and Ibogaine uh was a I'll use I statements. For me, it was everyone has their own experience with it. But for me, it was um a very dark experience that you really you're almost like in a semi-paralyzed state while you're going through it. But it's a moment by moment audit. For me, it was a moment by moment audit of my entire life. And so I would see a flash of something and then another flash of something, another flash of something. And it's like auditing to see how you respond to those things. And when you try to look away from something, it brings it like front and center. Until eventually I was in this like you know like your iPhone like camera roll.

Kristin: 20:45

Oh yeah.

Spencer: 20:46

Imagine that is like a 360 all around you. Oh wow. So it's all of these moments in your life at any one time. And so you're laughing, you're crying, you're screaming, you're coming, you're doing you're dancing, you're da da da da da da da da right? Until you don't want to look at something and then it brings that front and center. Right. And what's really interesting about that is in that construct, I was not only able to see it from like a porthole effect. So I was like outside of myself. I was still able to see it as myself, but I was also able to experience it from the perspective of everyone else. And so um like if I was being beaten you know by by my dad it was like in his head he was like I'm saving you because I'm not beating you as bad as my dad beat me. Or um in combat it was like he was you know when when guys went down like they were grateful. Oh man oh my God I was giving this speech uh once and there was this one part of the speech that I I could never get through and so I come back off stage and there's these uh gold star mothers there. This one mom comes up to me and she's like um honey I had the same problem every time I talked about my Danny uh my priest taught me this really great trick. If you're when you start getting emotional if you just clench your butt cheeks did you just clench your buttons I did 100%. It reset your entire central nervous system and then you can it won't mean you're pussy five if you're dad which is funny because like when I'm giving my dad's um when my dad died uh um and I was giving his eulogy I'm like you know kind of making a joke about it and then I start it gets a little serious and you like to see me take a step back and like continue with the story. But it was it was a way that medicine did wonders for um for freeing me of the shame of things. Because I was able to better understand that um like I used to I I tell this one story in the book about um we were really poor when we were growing up like church bringing food to the house. Shame yeah poor and my mom would bake our own bread and she'd make the clothes for my sisters and um and I always felt like I was a burden on the family because like without me I felt they would have more resources and uh and so I think I wrote my like first suicide note when I was like 10 years old. But um there was a time where we only had peanut butter and my mom's homemade bread to eat. But my mom was like so full of shame that this was all that she could provide that she turned it into I did something wrong. And so this was a punishment. And I couldn't remember anything that I did wrong. And it was kind of like I also felt like that my sisters were being punished for something that I did. So I had like all these like childhood stories of uh that I was bad, that I wasn't meeting the standard that I was I was a a a cause of uh detriment and and frustration to like everyone around me and um and and but what this medicine helped me to see was no, this was just she couldn't give voice to her shame so she displaced it onto me.

Kristin: 24:06

Like created the reason for yeah.

Spencer: 24:09

And because like I was the man of the house because there was no other right so it was a little bit of toxic enmesure. But um but it really helped to relieve all of that shame. Uh but it did nothing to um uh with for the guilt.

Kristin: 24:28

What about forgiveness?

Spencer: 24:29

Did it help with that or forgiveness was Or has that been a big piece or a part of so when it came to like applied violence and things like that, that was a job I was doing I had no I had no problem with that. Um I meant for like maybe parents or that's a question I haven't been asked and haven't considered but for me it I didn't hold any animosity the me needing to forgive them what didn't hold as much weight as my ability to understand.

Kristin: 25:15

Okay.

Spencer: 25:16

And once I understood there was no need for forgiveness because I understood that I think and I'll use I statements I think that as I was a child I had an expectation of that my mom should have protected me better or that my biological father should have been a better strong masculine presence who provided and protected or that um the community should have provided for me better because I I was just a child. And so if I had embraced a I was wronged framework, that would require a a forgiveness uh response. What I have learned, and this is like kind of um the healing and the integration part of the book is like they didn't have it to give. They did the best they could with what they had. And it wasn't fair of me to prescribe to them skill sets or or um abilities or capabilities or to be able to hold space or to have um that kind of resilience within them that they could then give to me. They just didn't have it to give and once I was able to understand that the the shame that I had done something wrong that wasn't worthy of it dissolved. Does that make sense? I explained it a bit better in the book.

Kristin: 26:49

No I think you do you explained it pretty well.

Spencer: 26:52

Like I said but didn't do anything to to um for like the guilt.

Kristin: 26:56

Yeah.

Spencer: 26:57

Because even though I I said like I had no problem with the with the application of violence because I understood what was on the other side of it, what I did have a big problem with and was a big trigger for me was um did we fight on a lie? Did we did did people above me have information that they weren't that they were leveraging to forthright or to extract or enact an outcome that was favorable to them disguised at what was good for the whole right and so I have a I had a huge problem with that. And so while in the moment I didn't have like it was like did did this really did any of this need to happen? Was I just a pawn in someone else's war? Was I like and so that was a a big guilt thing for me. And I would have this nightmare recurringly where I would be like bound and gag to a to a chair and there were these guys who would just like come up and pick a gun up off the table, put it to my head, click, click until one of them would go bang and then I'd have to like get up and and like you know clear the hotel room or the house or whatever I was in for the rest of the night. Um and so uh I got invited out to this um to do a hero's dose of psilocybin uh at a veteran's retreat. And I um it was part of this like hypnotic induction and um I was kind of like in this there was like this um chamber inside my soul that opened and there was like this staircase that went down and had like those like um those like torches that are like the wood torches with like the fire that kind of like lit the way down until I got to this um landing. And then there was this um inscription on this wall that I had to read. And to this day I don't know why this was the inscription but it was from Billy Joel's and So It Goes. Oh okay in every heart there is a room, a sanctuary safe and strong to heal the wounds of lovers past until a new one comes along and as soon as I read it this like door opened and it led into this next chamber and I had to name this chamber. So it's like all right I'm gonna name this chamber Love. Right? Just write about love. Love is front of mine. And then it's kind of goes like opens up. And have you ever been like in an espresso store and it's like all the little um like the old pot pods of of coffee and they're all the different colors. Yeah. Right? It was kind of like that but the these were all the tools you would need for love.

Kristin: 29:37

Right?

Spencer: 29:37

And I was like oh okay so like if I need to understand love, I can come here and and then this other passage opened up and I felt called to go down this this and then um and so I didn't name this room. This one was compassion and then and then all these things like showed up and then there's like two or three more rooms and then I I go to this final room and I'm like okay this room is war. And like all the guns and the knives and and everything. But what was interesting is that I had to go from love to compassion to understanding to healing to perspective before I could get to war.

Kristin: 30:12

Right.

Spencer: 30:12

So it had to be this whereas before it would just I would just go right to violence. And there was this like hearth in the corner that was like blowing up like these like flames and the flames kept like kicking these embers over to this other passage. And you know you've done soon so you know how like you can kind of control it but like the more you fight it like the it's not so great. So it keeps like I'm like I'm good I'm good. Okay, I understand that like I can't go straight to violence. I gotta go through okay I understand. And it was like I got to I have to hold the olive branch in my hand and then that I'll I have to intentionally put that olive branch down before I can pick up the weapon. But still wants me to go down this other path. I'm like no not gonna happen. And then the fire gets hotter and brighter and throws more embers and it's like no you're going. And I'm like no I'm not and it goes more and more and throws more and more I was like I was like fuck. I was like okay so the only time you can be brave is when you're scared.

Kristin: 31:16

It's like fuck.

Spencer: 31:17

So I start walking down and as soon as I walk in there I can smell it. I know exactly where I am I'm back in that room from my nightmares and all those guys start walking towards me. Except this time I'm not tied to the chair. I'm in there by choice and as they start walking towards me I just have my hands out I say hey I'm not here to fight you I'm here to set you free and as soon as I said that this dragon who I guess was the one that was like blowing the fire out from underneath comes up behind me and blows fire into this room then just dissolves all of it. And he comes back and he looks at me and goes build something good here. And I realized that that room was my future that I had never considered before because I had lived with suicidal ideation since I was like 10. And that room led back to the stairs that led me back out. And uh I came out of that journey and I wrote 50 pages in a journal.

Kristin: 32:19

Wow.

Spencer: 32:20

That became this next book. Wow and I also called my text of my tattoo artist and it was like I need a tattoo of a dragon come up with something and so that's why I have the the dragon on my shoulder.

Kristin: 32:32

I love that.

Spencer: 32:34

Um and coming out of that journey I've never once again thought about suicide in fact it's like um I my relationship with alcohol completely changed. I I mean I will still have a drink here and there but it's not like I need to have a drink. And that was arguably the single most cathartic and healing turning point of my entire life. And so while I I absolutely champion the benefits of of psychedelics and and it it really can be six years of therapy in six hours, but you gotta be willing to do the work. Because even though I had all those takeaways and all those insights integrating that new perspective, that new paradigm into my everyday life was something that is still ongoing and which is why the book is called Winning the War versus having won it.

Kristin: 33:35

Yeah.

Spencer: 33:35

Because every day is a school day. Every day is is a um a a willingness and a um a willingness and an openness to becoming better. Um and sometimes that requires a lot of internal work. Yeah um and that work's not always easy but you gotta choose your hard and I have always been someone who would lean more into courage than comfort.

Kristin: 34:07

Me too that's like one of my top values I love I mean to me courage is like so much Yeah and so I'm putting that all into a book so that you know and listen not it's not just veterans that have trauma. Oh yeah I think we all do.

Spencer: 34:24

Every single one of us it's just that um you know when I was in the throes of my despair there was a hundred people I could have called that would have taken the call but I didn't know a single person who who could relate to where I was I didn't know anyone who was down in that hole and didn't know how to get out. I think now I did tons.

Kristin: 34:41

Yeah and I think a lot of people are good at hiding it or I felt like I was good at hiding it for a long time.

Spencer: 34:45

I was a social chameleon.

Kristin: 34:47

Yeah.

Spencer: 34:47

I could be whoever hyper independent hyper independent uh I would self-isolate um you know it's uh I had Dakota Myers on my podcast and he and I sat in this room and uh cried for like 20 minutes that never made it on because we we we sat there and going oh like oh yeah remember like when we would watch um like Lethal Weapon like Mel Gibson had a he had a hollow point for when he went to do the right and like how Rambo was an isolationist. And it was like it was almost like Hollywood promoted that having PTSD meant you did your job well. And so we all went out and sought out these careers and these opportunities that would allow us to become the heroes that would get this what I would once call a badge of honor is now a badge of trauma, but then never taught us how to deal with it.

Kristin: 35:37

Yeah.

Spencer: 35:38

And now we have a whole generation coming back that's finally like, hey guys, like you know I'm glad that they have your story as a lighthouse. Like I said, every everyone's story is different and there are guys who have gone through things that would make me sit in the corner and cry for the rest of my life. So I'm not like putting myself in in in in uh comparison but come for the story, stay for the lesson and if in like I said if it helps one Yeah I think it'll help a lot of people I can't wait to read it.

Kristin: 36:08

June? Now we're doing June June 26th. So now I have a couple different directions. Thank you for sharing that. That was like I'm like been brought to chills whenever you said something about like the other room too I had a ripple of chills go like through my body which to me is like truth as sensation. Yeah powerful so thank you appreciate the vulnerability. I'm curious I have like a whole list of questions we can talk about dating we can talk about we can talk about instinct and intuition yeah yeah or um or pusification.

Spencer: 36:36

What do you think the difference is between instinct and intuition?

Kristin: 36:42

I don't know um pattern recognition comes up but intuition yeah the gut feeling but maybe that's just like lived experiences and being able to spot certain things a little bit I don't know.

Spencer: 36:53

Yeah you tell me listen there is no right answer. Okay but um an inexplicable knowing for me is an intuitive so instinct and intuition I think gets get conflated the same way that like fear and being afraid get conflated. Um fear is very present right fear is there is a real life threat to your existence standing in front of you that triggers a trauma response of fight, flight, freeze or fall. Right? And those those responses are going to be grounded in childhood experience and whatever. That is fear. Fear is good. Being afraid of something or having anxiety about something is not fear because fear has to be present. What you are what what being afraid of something or having anxiety about something is what could happen in a realm of possibilities that my subconscious is preparing me for so that when it presents itself, I can respond more effectively, which is actually some some researchers have have uh believe which is why we dream it is our subconscious preparing us for eventualities that are more probable than possible so that we can respond more effectively in the moment when they appear that's what being afraid and being anxious about something does so that if that does I'm afraid he's going to break up with me. I'm afraid that I'm gonna get fired. I'm afraid that I'm not gonna have enough money to pay this month's rent. I have a lot of anxiety about um how my speech is going to go. Those are all stressors so that you can put the systems and the strategies and the practices in place to keep those things from becoming a reality or to effectively manage and handle them once they do. If you're if you're anxious about the speech you're gonna give practice giving the speech more right if you're afraid that you're gonna get fired, audit yourself with honesty and course correct that before you get fired. Right? Goody's gonna be like, hey listen, I know I've been fucking up I I realize what's going on I've made here are the corrective actions I'm making so that you can be proactive and participate in that outcome rather than being subjugated or a victim to it. Instinct I would kind of put on the fear front whereas intuition I would put on the intuition front if that if that makes sense. Yeah. Instinct is am I going to choose fight, flight, fear, uh freeze or fawn, right? I'm gonna fight if instinctively I think I can beat you. I am going to flee if I instinctively think I can outrun you. I am going to fawn if I think that you're probably going to out overpower me and and um and outrun me. So I'm just going to please you so that this does I'm gonna have to endure it and just not gonna make it worse. Uh fight, flight, freeze uh and freeze is I freeze is what most people do before they choose fight, flight or fight, flight or fawn. It's the deer in the headlights, right? The squirrel that goes, uh, don't go this way. And then and then they make a decision. Um so instinct is to fear as intuition is to anxiety. Would be the way I would explain it.

Kristin: 40:12

Yeah. I get that. How do people like strengthen one or the other?

Spencer: 40:16

No one fears that which they know well. If I were to and that comes from two things. Um one is distress tolerance, right? And the other is stress inoculation. So distress tolerance is um family's going out to dinner, right? And uh we're going to my favorite restaurant. And when I go to this favorite restaurant, I always get uh burger and fries. Um but when we get to this restaurant, the fryer's broken. And so I can get the burger, but I have to have something else other than the fries, right? Well, if you're a child and you've never had something not go your way for like for the first time, okay, that's distress tolerance. You're gonna have to get used to, I know this is what you wanted, but you're not always gonna get what you want. The more of those you can you can um be bombarded with as a child, the more adaptive you will be able to be as an adult. But when, and this is where uh, and again, I'm not a parent, but I I I I protect a lot of families. Parents have shifted from preparing children to protecting children. And your job as a parent is not to protect them. Your job as a parent is to prepare them. Right? So you want to protect them by helping them prepare to do dangerous things carefully. You protect them by helping them to prepare, right? Like equip them. Exactly. Socialize them, get them to do other things. The other thing is no one fears that which they know well. So this is where stress inoculation comes in. Being in a gunfight is very, very shhattering to the ego, to the system, right? So what the military does is they go, okay, as soon as you hear this sound, you're gonna get down to the ground, then you're gonna bring your weapon up, then you're gonna cite your picture, then you're gonna shoot, and then you boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So that there was a uh an instructor in ranger school who said something that I thought was was uh very impactful. He said, in combat, a man's brain turns to water and runs out his ears and he relies on pure instinct alone. Wow. But if you train that to the point that it becomes muscle memory, you won't be thinking about it. You're just gonna respond. Wow. Um, if I like uh Formula One was just here, right? If I was to take you out to Coda and put you in the suit and the hat and the helmet, right, and put you in one of those cars and say, hey, drive around this track 200 miles an hour, your heart rate's gonna be like 160. Yeah. Right? But your hundredth time around the track, maybe 150, 1000th time around the track, maybe 120, your 10,000th time around that track, you're gonna be driving with your knee, updating your Instagram, right? Because you've done it so many times now. And so when it comes to, sorry, I keep kicking the microphone.

Kristin: 42:55

You're good.

Spencer: 42:56

When it comes to how do you train that, you train it through exposure. You train it through doing the difficult things in a very careful way. You do it by exposing yourself to dangerous dynamics that you have some kind of control over so that when you are presented uh with it in in in real life, you um can uh don't freeze as long. You're more effective.

Kristin: 43:21

Yeah.

Spencer: 43:21

Right. And this is when it gets into you know, whether it's the military or or being a pilot or or being a surgeon or a doctor or podcasting, right? Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong. And it's really that simple.

Kristin: 43:39

Aaron Ross Powell Would you say that that's like the way to build trust if like people have been overriding their instincts?

Spencer: 43:45

Self-trust?

Kristin: 43:46

Yeah, like building self-trust like to expose themselves to like those situations or different scenarios to get the reps.

Spencer: 43:55

I don't like I said, I would I choose to lean into courage more than comfort. So it's really hard. And you and Courtney were talking about this, um, about you know, putting yourself front and center. When when I uh for most of my career, I was behind the scenes. I was the guy, you know, in the, you know, behind the guy or behind the woman or behind the family or behind the person. I was um invisible until I needed to be present and then made myself known and then and then disappeared again. So when I started my own business and had to get used to being front and center and being on camera and getting used to talking, I remember my first I had started my business in December of 2012, and the Boston Marathon bombing happened in like April of March or April of like 2013. So it was like two months later. And I got called to go on Katie Kirk two months into to doing my business. And the producer comes up to me in the green room and they're like, Okay, she's gonna ask you like one of these two questions. And so I had those two questions in my head, and I'm in literally in the green room, just like this is what I'm gonna say, this is what I'm gonna say, this is what I'm gonna say, this I'm gonna say. And then um on TV it was Katie Kirk was sitting here. It was me and then two other experts. And she goes, Okay, and um, and she gave me the question that was supposed to go to someone else. And I went, ah and I was just like this, and then I got in my head because I saw the cameras, I saw the audience, I saw the light. I was like, this is gonna live on the internet forever. And I got really inside my head about it. And I was just like, uh, but you know, now, and even like when I was like promoting my book, um, you know, like they'd be like, oh, we're gonna ask you this. Like, uh, any idea like what kind of questions they're gonna be asking so that I could like know and have some kind of like control over it. I've been doing this so long now that like I don't I forget about the cameras. Oh, oh look, that's me. Right? It's like um and I do and the same thing with like guests when they come on. And they I can see that they're like, listen, in 10 minutes, you're gonna forget these microphones are here, you're gonna forget the cameras are there. This is just a conversation.

Kristin: 46:01

That's all it is.

Spencer: 46:01

Yeah. That's all it is. But you have to have the willingness and the and the desire to um to You don't get comfortable by always being comfortable. You get comfortable by being as uncomfortable as possible the most you can.

Kristin: 46:23

Uh that's so good. It's so true. Like the willingness to get uncomfortable.

Spencer: 46:28

I am very comfortable. Stretch the edges. Being uncomfortable.

Kristin: 46:30

Yeah.

Spencer: 46:32

Right. I like leaning into courage. I like I like knowing at the end of the day, hey, I wasn't a bitch today.

Kristin: 46:40

Yeah.

Spencer: 46:40

Like, hey, they a couple differ I In fact, if like something's not going, if the day's getting a little too easy, like I'll be like, yeah, I'm gonna learn Chinese.

Kristin: 46:48

Are you studying Chinese right now? Really? Do you speak any other languages?

Spencer: 46:53

Or uh a little bit of French and I speak like cop Spanish.

Kristin: 46:57

Okay. I'm like, I can understand some Spanish, but I don't know.

Spencer: 47:00

Yeah, Chinese is really hard.

Kristin: 47:01

Yeah. I'm like, of all the languages to pick. I'm like, I'm like, is that gonna come in handy? Like writing a screen. I think it's gonna come in handy very, very, very soon. Oh, okay. Interesting. Um see, I wanted to see here what a question that I had about that before we go into like maybe some dating questions.

Spencer: 47:19

What is your relationship with safety?

Kristin: 47:22

Relationship with safety. Um I've always been a thrill seeker.

Spencer: 47:25

So no, it's interesting because like if you ask a man when was the last time he was afraid, like he really has to think about it. And most women you ask when were you less afraid, they're gonna go, like, oh, it's Whole Foods this morning?

Kristin: 47:35

Oh, yeah. I mean, the past this past summer is when I had like the the rattling uh experience, but which I think I talked about a little bit on your podcast. I'll talk a little bit on here. Um but yeah.

Spencer: 47:46

But I but I also women think about safety like safety is fresh- And I did carry my gun in my like going home for the holidays.

Kristin: 47:53

I'm like, I have my gun in my center console. Like I am like Do you train with it? I have before. Like I've gone to the range. I need to do that. No, not before.

Spencer: 47:58

Do train with it.

Kristin: 47:59

Oh no. I probably need to go back more. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Spencer: 48:01

Because the number one argument about being a I said this on an interview.

Kristin: 48:06

How often do I need to train with it?

Spencer: 48:07

Like we I say a thousand rounds a month.

Kristin: 48:10

Okay.

Spencer: 48:11

My my rule is if you're going to carry a gun, you should be shooting a thousand rounds a month. Um and that's drawing from concealed, that's at different ranges, that's you should be doing some like doing some push-ups and some jump ejects. Because the number one argument against someone using a handgun in a s effectively in a self-defense uh life or death scenario is to watch the everyday citizen try to take a selfie with a celebrity using their cell phone.

Kristin: 48:36

Oh right.

Spencer: 48:37

You and I sitting here can take out our phone and take a picture of this nice little plant and hey, no problem. But Taylor Swift walks in the room and both, oh my God, it's now imagine that's a handgun.

Kristin: 48:48

Yeah.

Spencer: 48:48

So much like the driving the race car around the track a couple hundred feet.

Kristin: 48:52

Being more comfortable.

Spencer: 48:53

It's very easy to go to the range and stand there, and the paper target's there, and you're gonna be like, okay. Now I'm gonna pick it up. Now I'm gonna present, and I'm gonna line it up, and then I'm gonna squeeze. Yeah, but it felt someone's life was two seconds.

Kristin: 49:10

Yeah.

Spencer: 49:10

Wow. You have two seconds or left.

Kristin: 49:12

Definitely need to put more reps in then for sure.

Spencer: 49:14

And but it made me feel safer. Well, that's thank you for saying that.

Kristin: 49:20

Yeah.

Spencer: 49:20

Because that's false security. Right. So one of the biggest things when I'm working with new clientele or when I'm doing audits is helping them to understand the difference between safety and security. Because they are used interchangeably, but they mean completely different things. Safety is a feeling. Security is a state of being. Right? You feel secure if you're in a loving relationship and you have enough money in the bank and you have food in the fridge and you have a warm bed, right? These there are it is based on structures that are around you that you know are constant. Safety is a feeling. So a a baby held by their mother may feel safe, but a mother's love is not enough to keep that child protected from the eels of the world, right? Conversely, that child who is securely tucked into their bed at night may not feel safe if they think there's a monster in the closet. Right? So, in order for us to be protected, safety and security must be in Congress with one another. If you can carry around the umbrella, but you open it, it's got a bunch of holes in it, right? You felt safe, but not very secure. Or if you think that, or if you have an expectation that the spare tire in your car is fully inflated and ready to go, but you haven't inspected it or checked it or checked it. You may feel that you're protected, but in reality, not.

Kristin: 50:49

Yeah. Mine would be like, can I actually change the thing? Right. I'd be calling up some triple A or friend of mine.

Spencer: 50:55

Even if I'm unarmed and I come up to you, and you're trained will always be untrained. Always. In any s any situation. So let's say that you think I'm a big scary guy and I'm coming up to you at night and you pull a gun on me, I'm taking your gun from you. And that's not something you want. If you're going to present a weapon, you should be prepared to take a life. And in the military, that's months of training.

Kristin: 51:20

Yeah.

Spencer: 51:21

Years of training before it will ever actually happen. So that when it does happen, you don't even think about it. Versus, oh, I saw it on TV once. And um so if you're gonna carry a gun, please train with it.

Kristin: 51:32

Yeah as much as you possibly can't. I will. I'll go. I'll pinky promise that. I'll go. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, let's go. Because I need help. Because I I tend to like go down a little bit.

Spencer: 51:40

Yeah, you're writing the trigger down.

Kristin: 51:42

Yeah, because I'm like, I guess anticipating it or something.

Spencer: 51:45

Right, because holding something that explodes in your hand is not a normal human top. Right?

Kristin: 51:50

Yeah, true. I'm like, I haven't done that very often. Uh okay. I want to talk about like dating a little bit.

Spencer: 51:56

Go for it.

Kristin: 51:56

Um like so.

Spencer: 51:57

Dating in Austin or dating in China.

Kristin: 51:59

Oh God, maybe just dating in general. I mean, I had your dream.

Spencer: 52:04

I had uh Lloyd um what's his last name? Lloyd uh the a single guy. Have you have you met him? He records this podcast here. Great guy. Something like 70% of like men 23 and under have never asked a woman out on a date.

Kristin: 52:21

Yeah. I felt like there's a big um influx too of involuntary celibate men.

Spencer: 52:27

Yeah. Yeah. Well I think uh there's a lot of reasons. But let's what what's your question on dating?

Kristin: 52:31

Trevor Burrus, Basically, I mean, like whether um, what's some things that you wish a woman knew about vetting a partner or like protecting themselves, or um I have on here as well like early green flags or early red flags that someone is going to cost you your peace.

Spencer: 52:47

Um I have a chapter in my book about the safety trap of being too polite. And in that chapter, the number one takeaway is that your willingness to defend yourself should always be stronger than your unwillingness to offend another. Women, or we have all, but especially women, have been conditioned and trained and um socialized into being polite, into being courteous, into not uh tipping over the apple card or being disrupted. Just pleasure, right? It's just like go along to get along, like don't upset anyone, right? And um women especially have been almost socialized like past the point of being safe. And I had I had this uh client and she was in a in a predicament that uh she had many opportunities to get herself out of, uh, but she didn't want to offend or or cause a stink or or make anything um else uh she didn't want to put herself in a position of of of prominence above this individual, even though she absolutely had the right to. Because I will often say being polite is a courtesy, but protecting yourself is a priority. And if it hadn't been for uh this random passerby or uh thwarting this this dynamic, it would have ended very, very bad for her. Like very bad. Um and so I'm talking to her later, and she shares with me, she's like, I have not honored my instincts my entire life. Um when I was a child, I was told to just like, you know, don't, you know, just be polite, just be cute, just like just stay pretty, and someone's gonna take care of you, and don't worry, and don't do this, and don't don't cause a scene, and like like it wasn't I mean, there's still like this the Cheryl Sandbert, like like lean in and make your voice known and all that stuff. But that's a very new um presence. And that's not something that's um instilled in a lot of women from from a very young age. And she was and she was a mother and she had kids and she was like, I uh dishonor my instincts all the time. I will say, oh, I'm thirsty, but I will make sure that all the kids get their what they need first. I'll make sure my husband gets his. If I'm at work and I and I need to go to use the bathroom, I'll be like, does anyone else need anything before I go and use the bathroom? If I um if I'm hungry, but like, can I does anyone else need food first? It's like they all they they their instincts are real and they hear them, but they don't uh about they don't honor them. And so honoring your instincts can be a radical shift in your self-protection. Because much like we are, you train like you fight, right? So if you have gone your entire life hearing those instincts, but not honoring them, and then you find yourself in a situation where you really need uh where listening to your instincts could really be the real world difference between life and death, but you have been so socialized and conditioned and trained to to disavow them and to go the route of politeness and to go the route of self-aware and to go and to keep the peace. You can find yourself in a real hazardous situation. And so we kind of like work through this plan. And it started with like, when I need to use the bathroom, I'm just gonna go and use the bathroom. When I feel thirsty, I'm just gonna go and get a glass of water. When I am hungry, I'm going to eat something. And, you know, people don't like to hear this, but in order to be truly selfless, you must first be selfish. Um I talk about in in in the book that I wrote that, you know, my mom, my mom was fucking a Wonder Woman, right? My mom raised four kids. Uh she ran she ran like daycare out of the house. My mom has a master's degree in speech pathology, right? When when my biological father left, like she had the opportunity to put us in daycare or or have someone else watch us, and she could have gone out and made all the money and done all the things. But she chose to run daycare out of our house until my youngest sister was old enough to go to school, and then she got a job in our school district so she could be on our same calendar. But my mom was also like run ragged, right? So while my mom was always present, we were only really getting my mom 10%. We were getting 10% of my mom, 20% of my mom, 30% of my mom, right? And I have to wonder like, which is better to get 30% of your mom 100% of the time, or would you rather have 100% of your mom 50% of the time? Right. And it's one of those things where it's like when we try to give to others at a cost to our uh our own self-worth, our own self-being, our own, our own, like we are operating from a deficit. Whereas if we make sure that we're good, we are now serving from a from a source of abundance. Right. I kind of always equate that to like the champagne tower. Like filling the top glass, that overfills, that flows the two belief that fill, which fills. If you just take that bottle and try to fill every make sure every glass has at least a little bit before you you're gonna run yourself ragged. Like so, in order to be truly selfless, you must first be selfish. So I think women in dating, honoring those instincts and and listening to those intuitions and calling those red flags for what they are and not wanting to believe the lie, and oh, but daddy, I love him, I can fix him.

Kristin: 58:31

Seeing the potential or the lie that we tell ourselves.

Spencer: 58:36

In that little eye kind of that we're 19 or 20 and you you meet the cute guy in the bar who's like the you know, who's you know, gonna be a musician and like, yeah, that guy has potential. When you're in law school and you're falling for the 35-year-old guy who's the who's you know singing on stage, like that guy that guy's potential has left, right? Like so, unless that guy's like a trust fund baby, like you know. So but like I always say, like, audit yourself with honesty and and also become familiar with what your triggers are and what your desires are and what you're compensating for and and all those things. But in almost every situation that I have spoken to uh someone who is either in a um in a uh a threatening dynamic or in an emotionally disruptive dynamic, and I say to them, Hey, listen, if we if we go back, can you kind of pinpoint like when this began? They can always do it. Every single time. And they choose not to because they don't want to be mean.

Kristin: 59:40

I'd rather be mean these days, I think.

Spencer: 59:43

Um I had a lot of people. I also think there's a very interesting framing in the way that like men pursue women and the way women want to be pursued.

Kristin: 59:53

These days now, or like what's current or back, you know.

Spencer: 59:58

If guys are out at a bar and we See an attractive woman. We want to go right up and talk to the movie of like I make a date right then. What women and you say that, but where what I hear women saying more is it's kind of like sales. Like it need they require like six or seven touches before they'll commit, right? So I hear this the one anecdote I hear the most is the gym guy or the or the guy from work or the uh the guy that's at the dog park where it's like they see the guy, they think he's cute, right? Then they see the guy and he kind of looks at them and acknowledges them, right? And then there's a wave, and then there's uh, oh hey, good to see you. And then there's, oh, how was your weekend? And then there's and then it's so it's over space and time, this um like kind of built rapport. Build rapport of trust and intimacy and or whatever. Versus you match with a guy online, right, who you don't know in real life, who who is now going to uh like start texting you or or whatever like this dynamic could come. It's just not guys will either over-text themselves out of a date or uh or say something creepy that will will get them out. It's like if you it's kind of like you you you've done sales, right? So it's like if you if you if you got the yes, shut the fuck up. Right? And also like have a plan.

Kristin: 1:01:22

Yes, have a plan.

Spencer: 1:01:24

Every woman I talk to is like um make the plan. Like r because this is one of the the and getting back to like the precipication of the American male thing, today's women are strong and educated and empowered, and they can buy their own house and their own car and their own dinners and their own clothes, and they can do it. They don't need a man, but they want one, right? What they don't want is to be out in their masculine all day and then come home to also be in their masculine. When they come home, they want to be in their feminine, they want to be nurtured and sexy and caring and and and loving. Soft. Soft, right? But that requires the man to step the fuck up. Hey, Saturday, Sunday, sushi. You down? Right? Like have a plan. A man has a plan. And if you don't like sushi or you're allergic to shellfish, or hey, I can't do that. Can we do a tie instead? Yeah, absolutely. We get we can change it up. But like have a plan. And, you know, hey, do you wanna hang out sometime is not a date. Um and Yeah, get specific. Yeah, and make your first, make your your first I I'll use I statements. I don't make my first date dates. I make my first dates experiences. Like, hey, do you wanna go shoot? Shared memory. Do you want to go do you wanna go to the range? Do you want to go to something? You wanna walk? Walks are great, dog parks. Yeah. You know? Something where it's like you're out in public, you're interacting, you're doing something fun that's not going to require her getting her hair and makeup done and buying a new outfit and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like keep it simple.

Kristin: 1:02:52

Yeah. I like it. And plus I feel like in the beginning, too, especially with the dating, but so many people wear the mask.

Spencer: 1:02:58

Also, preface this website. Never take relationship advice from a 48-year-old bachelor. Okay.

Kristin: 1:03:05

37 years a year-year-old.

Spencer: 1:03:08

I'm a 48-year-old bachelor, so clearly I don't know what the fuck. But I also also like I just didn't start loving myself until like two years ago.

Kristin: 1:03:15

I know, yeah. I mean, like, it's a new, it's like a a journey, ongoing journey too. I thought at first, whenever I first found love for myself, I was like, oh my God, I finally made it. Yay, woo-hoo. I didn't realize it is a continuous, ongoing process.

Spencer: 1:03:27

Um What do you guys do in in in the beginning of some relationship that make women feel unsafe?

Kristin: 1:03:33

Um Hmm. Um is it not listened to what they're saying, or like a no or a Oh, that's something.

Spencer: 1:03:47

Like women, I wish more women would understand that no is a one-word sentence.

Kristin: 1:03:53

Mm-hmm.

Spencer: 1:03:54

And that no is the end of the conversation, not the beginning of the negotiation. Because when a man says no, it's done. When a woman says no, it's okay, let's debate. And that's not how it should be.

Kristin: 1:04:08

Yeah.

Spencer: 1:04:09

Your no is just as strong and just as impactful and just as important as a man's. It will only not be that way if you allow it.

Kristin: 1:04:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. I've definitely had like a situation where it's like, oh, my intuition. That was that was the first sign. That was the first sign.

Spencer: 1:04:24

Honoring those intuitions and honoring those instincts.

Kristin: 1:04:26

Listen. Mm-hmm. I want to look take a quick beat here and then uh Go for it. Oh, okay, these are fun. No, I'm like switching gears. Um It says, what's something most people assume about you that couldn't be further from the truth?

Spencer: 1:04:47

I think people think I'm smarter than I am. And I'm just more creative. I also work really, really hard. Um I was never the smartest, the fastest, the strongest, the whatever. Um my any success that I have had is more a result of work ethic and discipline than of oh, he's so smart. How did you figure that out? Like it's because I failed a thousand times before the one I found the one that worked. Um my success is is directly uh correlated to my number of failures. Um and I failed a lot. I was uh cleaning something out. Oh, I'm I'm moving into a new house. And so I was like cleaning out my office and I have this like uh this like crate that has all of these like business things that I like thought were gonna be like the next, you know, oh, here's like a school safety app, here's this, here's that, here's that. And I was just like, oh yeah, like all of these had to fail in order for me to find the one thing that worked.

Kristin: 1:05:52

Um failure is feedback.

Spencer: 1:05:54

So I was uh so uh I think people would be surprised to learn how much I failed over space and time. So maybe that's not an intelligence thing, yeah. I think Yeah. I don't know. And it might also just be like a a childhood thing, like because my sisters were all like super smart um and like in gifted programs and like things like that. And I was just like, I was not a good student. I was a horrible student. I I have horrible ADHDA, I think I had like dyslexia as a kid. And um asking me a question that only has one answer just wasn't how I saw the world.

Kristin: 1:06:32

I could you could give me so much nuance, too.

Spencer: 1:06:35

Yeah, I could be like, well, what about this? And like I could see all the permutations and and and extrapolations, and what about this? What about this? But you're not you're not factoring in this. So I'm I'm not lucky, I'm I'm just resilient.

Kristin: 1:06:54

Yeah. It sounds like you've learned a lot too from life experiences and integrated all the things that you have along the way.

Spencer: 1:07:00

You could spend the rest of your life intentionally trying to fuck up everything you possibly could, and you wouldn't even come close to the number of fuck-ups.

Kristin: 1:07:10

I want to go to the phone.

Spencer: 1:07:11

Personally, professionally, romantically, financially. I have I have screwed the pooch more than anyone alive.

Kristin: 1:07:20

Like, why did I have to learn it by living it?

Spencer: 1:07:22

If there is a way to learn something the easy way and the hard way, trust me, I am going the hardest way possible.

Kristin: 1:07:29

I love that. Um, I mean, it's just funny, like the the comedic uh relief. Okay, one more question, and then um I want to just give you space to do whatever. Um, how do you think we course correct from like pacification of the American male? What are your thoughts on that?

Spencer: 1:07:49

Two things. I think women have to be very clear about what they I think men need to stop taking advice from men on what women want and start asking their ideal woman what she wants. Would be the first way to go. And I think that there needs to be a shift from false confidence to authentic self-confidence. I see a lot of guys walking around with facial hair and flannel shirts, driving trucks and tattoos, who can play the part of being an alpha right up until something goes wrong, and then they become a beta bitch.

Kristin: 1:08:36

Okay.

Spencer: 1:08:37

Right? Authentic self-confidence is practiced and tested and proven. False confidence is insecurity dressed up like bravado. Stop trying to be something you're not. And if you are wanting to be something you're not, you actually have to put in the work to get there. Right? You're gonna have to get some grit, you're gonna have to get, you know, some dirt under your nails, you're gonna have to get some calluses on your hands, you know, start doing jujitsu, start lifting heavy weights, pray hard, lift heavy, stay deadly. Um and that's not, I think, you know, what when I was a kid. Who's who's the comedian that has the whole bit about um mindfulness? Mindfulness. He's like, I used to have to sit in a car and just watch the condensation drip. We didn't have like a fucking multimedia entertainment system in the palm of our hands. Like, you know. I don't know who said it, but it's like, when was the last time you just took a shit? Just shit. It's like, right? He's like, yeah, like mindfulness for kids. That was our entire childhood. Like our parents would like there, there's like the one way she's like, they had to put like something on the news that said, it's 10 o'clock, do you know where your kids are? Yeah. Because our parents didn't.

Kristin: 1:10:02

We're just left to go out. Come back by dark.

Spencer: 1:10:05

Mine. We would get kicked out of the house at like seven o'clock in the morning and we would be told to come back by 7 p.m.

Kristin: 1:10:10

Yeah. That was it.

Spencer: 1:10:12

That was the oversight.

Kristin: 1:10:13

We had to live in our imagination.

Spencer: 1:10:15

The world I don't think was any more day or less dangerous or whatever, but it's like, you know, we used to ride our like stranger things. Like we rode our bikes everywhere, we play with kids, like we forged like other parents would maybe throw us a sandwich. Um, but we had a childhood of distress, of stress, of of stress inoculation, right? Of tr of figuring things out, of we knew who the creepy guys were and the houses you didn't go by. Like we understood pattern recognition and trusting our guts and we knew how to fight. Like, grow up in Philly, like if you hadn't had your nose broken in the 700 level of veteran stadium by the time you got to high school, you weren't a man yet.

Kristin: 1:10:56

Right?

Spencer: 1:10:56

Like your initiation. Know how many kids have actually been punched in the nose today. Like at the Naval Academy, they still have to have in order to graduate, you have to take a punch.

Kristin: 1:11:05

Oh, really?

Spencer: 1:11:06

Yeah, because they don't want you leading soldiers in war if you've never had your nose broken. Not saying that you need to get your nose broken, but you need to stand there in a ring and take a punch. Because you need to know you're not going to break. And I just don't think a lot of kids today um have had to really uh endure.

Kristin: 1:11:27

They haven't been prepped, kind of like what you mentioned earlier.

Spencer: 1:11:29

And I think that women, it would help if women were very clear about uh what they said they wanted, and then that's what they chose. Because I see a lot of women saying, Oh, I want the alpha man that's gonna be the provider, protector. And then as soon as he like steps up and starts like being like, hey, she's like, maybe I don't want this. You know? And I guess and then and that comes to like there's, you know, there's the wrong kind of uh masculinity, don't get me wrong. But you know, I'm I'm one of those guys that says like there's no such thing as toxy toxic masculinity. There's the lack of masculinity and then there's, you know, there's bitches.

Kristin: 1:12:08

I like that. The lack of masculinity versus toxic. Anything else you want to drop here or share?

Spencer: 1:12:17

Can I answer your questions?

Kristin: 1:12:18

Oh yeah, I have tons.

Spencer: 1:12:21

Well, let me uh let me ask you this. Do you want to dive into like the psychedelic space anymore? Or do you want to uh Sure.

Kristin: 1:12:30

We're just almost we're like over time, but we just what else do you want to say about psychedelics, real quick?

Spencer: 1:12:38

I mean I have nothing else to say about psychedelics.

Kristin: 1:12:40

Yeah.

Spencer: 1:12:40

I I think I think psychedelics are great, but I think it if you're expecting it to be a one and done, it's n it's that's not how it works. Um Hermose's got that great Do you know what Alex Hermosi is? He's got this great thing where he's like, if I show you a red card and I slap you across the face, and I show you a red card and I slap you across the face, and I show you a red card and you duck, you're smart. If you come back the next day and I show you a red card and I slap you across the face, you are not intelligent.

Kristin: 1:13:11

Yeah.

Spencer: 1:13:12

Right? So it's like psychedelics are a great way to bring an awareness that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to to the consciousness of your mind. But if you don't integrate that takeaway, that's all it will be. And that's where you see people doing, oh, this is my 27th ayahuasca journey. Right? There now you're trauma chasing, you're trauma hunting, whatever. Real healing comes from doing the hard work. And it is not fun. The journey might be fun. The integration will be anything but. And it is not linear. It is, I'll use I statements. For me, it is not a linear takeaway, right? I will be working on something and I'll be like, because I have like a very undisciplined and irregulated like incubation process. So I'll get it, I'll get a download about something. I'll be like, oh, okay, that's interesting. And I'll try to incorporate it. And then I'll be like flipping an egg on all threads, like, oh, that's what that meant. And then it kind of clicks into place. And then but getting back to like pattern recognition, it's when you are triggered. I now in my relationships, when some when I feel triggered, I now realize that that means because I'm either wrong or I'm getting defensive. And so I have had to have like very real conversations with with uh with the women I'm dating, being like, listen, I'm feeling triggered right now, and that's on me. I need 10 minutes. I need to go outside and just clear my head. I'm not abandoning this. I just I don't want to um speak or communicate from a position of defensiveness. I want to be able to speak and communicate from a position of of respect and understanding and compassion. I can't do it when I'm at 100. So let me give me 10 minutes. I'm just gonna go breathe, you know, a little bit. I'm just gonna go, you know, walk my dog around the block. And when I come back in, we're gonna have a very rational and calm conversation. And that almost always starts with an apology.

Kristin: 1:15:14

That self-awareness.

Spencer: 1:15:15

But that took a lot of work to because you know And pause if you're triggered.

Kristin: 1:15:20

Right.

Spencer: 1:15:21

Just like I'm like, ooh, it's just touching on a lot of people. Getting back to what can can men do better to go from uh uh uh false confidence to authentic confidence, take a pause. Take a pause. You I'm not I will always say that like uh the wrong decision will or will, you know, is better than indecision because you can course correct, but take a pause. You know, but in the military there's something that's called the ooh de loop, which is like uh observe, orient, aside act. But take that pause, take that five set ten seconds to okay, what is really going on here? Did did she, you know, because 99.999% of the time when people say something to get under our skin, that's exactly why they're doing it. And it's up to us if we want to accept it. Um who's the guy at the end of the day. Have you ever read uh Never Split the Difference? Great book. The guy's name is escaping me.

Kristin: 1:16:21

Um Write it down.

Spencer: 1:16:24

Uh FBI negotiator.

Kristin: 1:16:26

Um I used to think it'd be so cool to be like in the CIA or something.

Spencer: 1:16:29

He's great. But he's got this phrase that he would use in negotiations uh with you know suspects or whatever. Um and he'd be like, I I bet you have a good reason for saying that. So it comes, yeah, you're a fucking asshole. I bet you have a good reason for saying that. Right? Because it's like you're acknowledging what they said, but you're not you're not accepting it. Say more.

Kristin: 1:16:51

It's like a C where you may have a point where it become a lot of people.

Spencer: 1:16:54

Okay. Like people are like, you're a fucking asshole. Probably not wrong. But I bet you have a good reason for saying that. Right. Specifically. Why today in this moment am I being an asshole? I'm probably gonna agree with you. But I just want to know what your read on this situation and what that does is it allows you to take that shift from perception to perspective. I know how I'm seeing it. How are you seeing it? Because the more you can put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand where they're coming from and understand the dynamics that they're dealing with, because 99% of the time people are doing insane and living with shit that has nothing to do with us. We're just the recipient of it. And if you can take your ego out of the equation and be like, listen, are we fixing us or are we fixing this? We're fixing this, we can work together. But if we can't work together, that'll never get fixed. Right. So let's understand, let's name the problem, let's communicate what does winning look like, and then let's understand what it means um yeah, to do this. Like I I um uh I'm dating someone right now, and um I was uh I don't know, whatever, like well, sometime last week, I had like just like a shitload of stuff to do. And she's like, I'll be over around five. I was like, listen, I'm getting home like around 4:30, and I'm going to be at my desk like until like late tonight. And she's like, Does that mean you don't want me to come over? I was like, I always want you to come over and you are always welcome. I'm just letting you know that I'm only going to be available for quality time during dinner. And so if that is acceptable, great. But if it's not like I don't want you to come over and think I'm ignoring you. I'm I'm trying to frame and manage expectations as as best I can.

Kristin: 1:18:42

I think that's beautiful.

Spencer: 1:18:43

Communication versus her coming over and wondering why she's being ignored. Yeah, or assume that you're gonna spend the whole night together and then like get upset or be you know and I I even said to her the other day, I was like, listen, between two options of um we have quality time uh during dinner and after dinner until you go to bed and then I work, or I go work now until it's time to go to bed, would you rather us have quality time and then not go to sleep together? Or would you rather have quality time and then you go to sleep together, you go to sleep and I'll and I'll come in later? Like, which is more important to you? I don't care. But one of them has to happen. So you tell me you can choose, but like uh and it's like when you my my I actually learned this from my sister. She was like, if I if I say to my nephew, who's like eight, like, what do you want to wear? That's too many options. But if I say, Do you want the blue jeans? Do you want this or that? I want this. It was like, okay. That's it. Try to try to frame and manage those expectations as best you can. And understand that your your partner or your colleague or your coworker or your friend or your boss or your girlfriend or whoever is also dealing with their own insecurities and frameworks and understandings and and and they just want to know where they stand.

Kristin: 1:19:57

For sure. Okay, Spencer, I'm about to have to pee. I gotta listen to my instincts.

Spencer: 1:20:01

Joe. Good. I love that you did that. This is a lot of fun.

Kristin: 1:20:04

I'm almost like, okay, wait.

Spencer: 1:20:05

Good.

Kristin: 1:20:06

Thank you. And look for his book in June, and I'll put everything in the show notes.

Spencer: 1:20:09

Thank you so much.

Kristin: 1:20:10

Thank you, Ruth. Thank you for being here, love, for listening with your whole heart, for listening to the very end, and for walking this wild path with me. If today's episode stirred something in you, whether a giggle, a tear, or a full-body yes, don't keep it to yourself. Share the magic, leave a review, drop me a note, or send it to a fellow sacred rebel who needs it. And remember, your story is sacred, your desires are divine, and your mess is part of the masterpiece. Keep showing up, keep feeling it all, and keep turning your life into poetry. Until next time, stay wild, stay tender, and stay true to that beautiful soul of yours. All my love, Kristen.