Sex, Drugs, & Soul

98. Confessions of a Tantric Pastor with Anthony Michael

• Kristin Birdwell • Season 4 • Episode 12

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What do you call a pastor who trades Bible verses for breathwork and starts preaching the gospel of pleasure?

In this episode, I chat with Anthony Michael, a former pastor turned tantra teacher, community builder, and “minister of pleasure.” Together, we dive into the intersection of religion, sexuality, and sacred embodiment.

From his 17 years in ministry to creating tantric play parties and a thriving conscious community in Houston, Anthony shares the radical journey of transforming guilt into grace and discovering how sex can be a prayer and pleasure can be devotion.

🎧 Inside:

  • What happens when a pastor discovers Tantra
  • Healing religious shame and sexual repression
  • Why “safe masculine presence” makes the feminine bloom
  • How divorce, desire, and devotion became his catalysts
  • Finding God in orgasm
  • The divine masculine, safe presence, and embodied leadership
  •  Rewriting your gospel through love, wholeness & desire
  • The surprising overlap between theology and sexuality

A conversation for anyone who’s ever felt torn between God and pleasure, holiness and wholeness. Spoiler: they might just be the same thing.

Timestamps:
00:00 – Welcome & “What’s turning you on right now?”
02:00 – From pastor to tantra: the safe masculine presence
05:30 – Growing up in the church & early call to ministry
09:00 – AOL chatrooms, Jesus moments, and hearing “the call”
11:00 – Seminary stories & inclusive churches
13:30 – Divorce, sexual awakening, & first casual encounters
17:00 – Getting fired from church 
20:00 – Redefining sex, casual connection, and healing codependency
22:30 – Meeting Samantha on Tinder & birth of Houston’s Tantra community
26:00 – From sermons to sacred sex: ministry of pleasure
31:00 – Codependency, control, & inner work
33:00 – Reimagining Jesus, Christ consciousness, & inner divinity
37:00 – God in the bedroom: “Jesus would fuck—and he’d be good at it”
40:00 – Mary Magdalene, Gnostic Gospels, & divine union
44:00 – Creating safe spaces for sensuality & shadow
46:30 – Potential vs. kinetic energy: the physics of a play party
49:00 – Breath, sound, & grounding in Tantra
50:00 – What his younger preacher self would say now
51:00 – If I preached today… “The gospel of oneness and sex as sacred”
01:02:00 – D

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...

Kristin:

Welcome to Sex, Drugs, and Soul, the sacred sensual space for wild ones, truth tellers, taboo dancers, and rebels with soul. I'm your host, Kristen Burgle, best-selling author, mystic, tantrica, and professional line blurrer between the profane and the profound. For years I thought I had to choose be the good girl or the wild one, be spiritual or sensual, polished or powerful. But I've learned the magic lives in the both and in the mess, the mystery, the mischief, and in embracing our messy humanness. This podcast is where healing gets real. Self-discovery gets juicy, and shame gets kicked to the damn curb. Whether I'm flying solo or vibing with fellow seekers, healers, experts, and pleasure revolutionaries, we dive deep into the beautifully messy intersection of spirituality, sexuality, and self-expression. Because your body isn't too much, your story isn't too messy, and your truth that's holy. We're recording on a soulful Sunday. I have Anthony here. So pumped. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. How appropriate that we're recording on a Sunday.

Kristin:

I know. I was thinking that on the drive over here. Hee hee. We've got some things in store for you guys.

SPEAKER_02:

Buckle up.

Kristin:

Yeah. I want to open up with um, first off, I have my questions over here just in case I need them. So I'm not, yeah. And um, but I wanted to ask you what um what's turning you on right now. Right. Or like the making you feel the most alive. Great question.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. So um so the first thing that comes to mind is I have been I've been diving into this world of Tantra for a while now. Uh and how fascinating that is because beforehand my life was entirely in ministry. I was a pastor for like 17 years. I still technically am. It's funny. The way that ordination works is fascinating to me. But there's a group of people that basically said, like, yeah, you're good. You can go do ministry wherever it is that you are. And I'm like, hot. So kind of that really is what's alive for me is what does it look like to be doing this ministerial, this service, this um work in the world that I'm in now, which is really fascinating. So the way that that looks, at least, and the way that it's being a really big turn on, is that I've had so many people approach me with this word that I'm the safe masculine presence to be around. And that has led to a desire for more like sensual and sexual experiences. And that's wild for me. It's like, oh wow, I really appreciate your like calm and your resonance. And like usually in the church world, it'd be like, oh, like I can learn from you, and like I want to hear you, you know, preach your sermons and things like that. And like people still do want to learn from me for sure, but they're also like, you want to go? And I'm like, whoa, like I had no idea that was a prerequisite. Like, if all this time I would have known, I'm like, who did why did nobody tell me? So I just I feel like it's that's bizarre. Like for me, I love to know that that like it's the energy that's present that really makes it like my energy is so like such a turn on. I'm like, oh yes. That's what I've been hoping for. And it probably has been this whole time, but I'm just now like realizing and recognizing that. So it's super, that's super hot right now.

Kristin:

Cool. I'll take that. I know. Yeah, I feel like whenever I feel that masculine presence that I feel safe, I can completely unravel and be in my feminine energy. And so that's definitely something that I don't think is that common that I've experienced. I I can think maybe on like one hand, like, okay, masculine presence, other than like my daddy, you know, like who did I feel safe around to like really let go?

SPEAKER_01:

And that's that's so accurate because like I I feel that I feel that too. It's like I I'm looking for that, right? Like I know I can provide that for myself, but there's been so many conversations I've had, especially with women who are like, I just I can't find that. And and as I've had the the one other person that comes to mind for me also has a communication around that sense of like they feel like a father figure because they can offer that safe presence. And so it doesn't always result in the same thing that it's been resulting in for me lately, which is like I feel safe to be sexual around you. I'm like, cool, great, go for it. But I also have this grounded energy that's like, I don't, I don't need that. Like, I I'm really grateful that you're telling me this. Like, there's been so many priestesses lately that have said that exact thing of like I I would like to be physical with you. And I'm like, cool. Like, thanks for letting me know. Like that's the thing is most guys would be like, like right now, like you want to go to the garage. Like, let's just hop over there and take care of that.

Kristin:

I feel like you can sense too if it's like that um maybe needy or clingy energy or wanting it, or you know, and so it's maybe it's a more of a turn on that you're not leading with that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know what I mean? That's absolutely fair. Because that because right, how many men are out there that are just like, oh, I just can't wait for the next one? Yeah, yeah. Like a little chipmunk, like I'm gonna stuff as much as I can in my mouth. Like, here we go. But yeah, that's not that's not the way that's not the way I I enjoy that, right? It's like there's no attachment there. It's like, okay, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. But like I'm not trying to rush it, I'm not trying to push it, I'm not trying to force it. It's just like there's no scarcity there. And I think that's that's part of it. It's something that's really scarce and a lot of men are in that mindset, especially, especially as the feminine has evolved so much over the past several years. Like um, there's there's been a discussion about the w the way the planets are. And I I like those discussions because whatever it is that the planets are made up of, we're also made up of.

Kristin:

I just saw a video on that. Did you really? Yeah. I was watching uh Diary of a CEO with um what, Neil Tyson? And he was like, yeah. And he said, um, yeah, carbon or like hydrogen, you know, oxygen, carbon, like something else. And so I was like, oh, I just love that little breakdown and like love that that we're part of the universe. Literally, what are the universe is made up of?

SPEAKER_01:

So are we. Yeah, exactly. There's a there's a going back to my pastoral days, there's a Greek term for the there's a Greek term for being made up of what it's called homoousias, which is a Greek term that just means whatever it is that God is made up of, we're made up of.

Kristin:

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's like the same stuff is really what that like word breaks down to. And it is fascinating. So yeah, that was a that was a trip.

Kristin:

Yeah, okay, okay. So I do want to rewind. Yeah, I love where you're at now, like minister of pleasure. Yes. Yeah, I know. I'm like, you gave away my little teaser.

SPEAKER_02:

Pastor Pastor Passion, they call me.

Kristin:

Yeah, because I was gonna say, like, I know now like you're a community builder in Houston, like in this tantric space, and you've been here for a minute, but I want to rewind. Yeah. Like to get back to like those minister days. Um, and then like kind of what spurred the journey there. Yeah. And then I'm curious also about the moment or the catalyst to deviate and go a different path or journey. I'm sure I mean to me, there's like a pivotal problem.

SPEAKER_01:

Of course, there's there's processes and there's moments, right? No matter anybody who changes at all knows that like it doesn't all happen at once. Oh, no, no.

Kristin:

But sometimes there's like a catalyst though.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like a click and you're like, oh my gosh. Because I had that when I I mean I mean, I know you've had plenty of your own catalysts. And my catalyst for ministry was really fascinating.

Kristin:

Oh, I'd love to hear.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I was I was 16. So I was but a child, a babe. A weed. Oh yeah. For a while still after that. Yeah. I was a goody two shoes Christian boy growing up. Like I at the time that I was at the time that I got my call to ministry, I could count on my fingers and toes the amount of times I had missed church.

Kristin:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

It was I was there all the time. Wednesdays too. Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Like I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church and then grew up Protestant, and we just we went every Sunday. Of course we went every Sunday. I helped lead Sunday school classes as like a nine-year-old. I was in a Christian school. I was diving into the Bible vigorously, memorizing portions of it that I still have like I can memorize, I have whole chapters where I can just start saying it. Wow. Because it's because it's been ingrained into me, right? And and I really value that. And especially as a 16-year-old, I was very grateful because I would go to youth group, I would go to church, and people would almost respect my opinion. Like you have a lot of knowledge in this area. And so and I and the whole Jesus thing really stuck. Right?

Kristin:

Like the Like the teachings or who he was, or like what piece of Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The big thing that stuck is like the very, very basics. When Jesus talks, he talks about a couple different things. He talks about love and he talks about feeding and taking care of those who don't have, right? So those were the two big things that really really stood out to me. Like love your neighbors yourself and love God. Right? Okay, cool. I can stick with that. And then the other thing is take care of the people around you. Like that's the whole gospel, right? Gospel is this Greek word, means good news. It was what they used to do. I didn't know that. Cool. It was this you they used to do this in in Rome. And so this is where like the Christian culture took place in Rome, um, and and outside of like the Roman world, right? So in Rome, whenever the Caesar, the ruler, would have something to say, there would literally be heralds, these people who went out on the street and screamed, Good news, good news, it's Caesar's birthday. Right. Or good news, we took over another portion of the world, right? That was what they did. Yeah. And so this usage of this word gospel became this like political statement where they're like, the good news isn't that it's just happening in Rome. This is happening for the world. And I was like, ooh, I like this. Like that was enjoyable stuff for me. But there was also all the shame, all the guilt, all the sexual like repression, all of the like fear and anger and all of the stuff that went along with it. So it was like, you know, I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I really don't. And so I was 16 years old. I'm sitting there at my computer on AOL Messenger, which battle date me. Right? Yeah. Killing Spike 68. That was my screen name. And I'm sitting there talking to this Mormon girl about Jesus. Like, why is why is Jesus important to me? It's like we're is we just had the conversation and she's like, I was having very different aim conversations.

Kristin:

Tell me uh ASL, is that what we were doing?

SPEAKER_01:

Cybersex. I don't even know what that was at that point. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I didn't mean to interrupt. No, you're okay. Please tell me tell me more. I've I've done a chat like that every now and then now. Um so so we're talking about that. Yeah, it's just like that's what was alive for me at the time. And communicating about what was valuable to me was really important. And so here I am speaking about this. Like, this made a difference in my life, right? Like it created me into the person that I am and it helped me like work through some of the like shit that was going on at home. Like there was some not great stuff going on. And I had this like ever-present love that I could connect to that was beyond me and within me at the same time.

Kristin:

I mean, what's not to love about that? Yeah, incredible.

SPEAKER_01:

It's just also coupled with all the shit.

SPEAKER_02:

But you know, um I'm like, I'll keep that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's like the love as long as you're in line. Um but then I'm literally I'm having this conversation, and out of nowhere, I hear this voice that says, You're gonna be a pastor. And I was like, What? Who? And then there was like this wash of peace that came over me. And I was like, Yeah, that makes sense. I remember going out and telling my mom, like, hey mom, I'm gonna be a pastor. And she's like, Oh yeah, cool, that makes sense.

Kristin:

Cool. That tracks for you. Now, real quick, I'm curious, like before that moment, uh, did you have any aspirations to do something else? Like as a kid. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Which was weird because I hated science, I hated math. So I was like, okay, I don't know why, but that was what that's what came away.

Kristin:

Yeah, I was curious. Okay. And so you had that moment and then you go on the journey. Yeah. What did that look like?

SPEAKER_01:

The whole oh my gosh. So from 16 to about 31. So 15 years of just like ministerial training. So went to an undergraduate school where I was uh doing religion and philosophy and Christian ministry. And that was my that was my whole thing. And I was like doing youth ministry, working with teenagers throughout that whole time. Um had really incredible learnings from a couple mentors of mine. Um, one guy, his name is Josh. We're still friends today. We play DD every Monday night on online. It's great. Pastors who play DD and talk about sex, it's great. Um but so we did that, and and he was really uh instrumental in kind of changing my mindset from this, it has to be this way to maybe there's actually a lot wider of a scope that we can look at. And that was a really fascinating shift because then I was like, okay, if there's not just this one stringent way of following all these rules, like what's in the bounds? Like we move, he said we moved from a basketball court, which is like pretty small, and like there's two hoops, and you have one goal, get the ball in the hoop, right? To a soccer field. And a soccer field's much bigger, it's much wider. Yeah, there's two goals, but the way that you can get it there is a whole lot different. And so it just widened and broadened the field for me. So I was very grateful for that and then lived my life. I got married, I got uh I was in a pastorate for a while, just being a youth pastor, learning new things, and then I went to seminary. So my under my graduate school. And that was in Chicago.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And that seminary was I was the minority as a straight white man. The most people there were theologians of color and queer theologians.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01:

So like I learned from like BIPOC and all kinds of like different perspectives. And when I say different perspective, it's like actually it wasn't really that different. It was just different from what I had been holding. And I was working at a reconciling church, it was a church where we hired queer people on stuff, which was a totally different world then. So ev it was a whole lot more inclusive and understanding. And it wasn't just this narrow little thing. It was like really, it was a huge broadening of all of my perspectives. But I still hold on and held on to the like Jesus narrative because I it really holds a lot of value for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Like the way that we treat others is really important. And Jesus goes on and on about that, and about our inner world too. So I'm like incorporating and getting all these things, and I'm teaching and and doing all this different work and having kids, and I'm like, okay, this is this is good. Like life's okay. And then my marriage fell apart.

unknown:

Oh.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

It was just like now, did it fall apart before the discovery of Tantra or I was yeah, that was I didn't know if that was kind of like the catalyst of its demise. You know what it was. It was, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

My divorce, my divorce was kind of the catalyst for all this. Oh, okay. Because I had never slept with anyone other than my wife at that time. And it was all I all I knew was having sex with her. And like there was one way you did it, and it was fine. And the way that her and my relationship ended up was it was just it was not great. I had a lot of codependent patterns, a lot. Because I was trying to recreate stuff with my own father, you know, et cetera.

Kristin:

Oh, God, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_01:

We can go on about that, but that's a different podcast. So I got divorced and I'm still pastoring, right? And what I did is I lost a ton of weight. I was like, I was like 190 pounds, and I it was 33, and I'm fit, and I'm like, oh, suddenly people are treating me differently because I look differently. And I started streaming on Twitch. I don't know if you know Twitch is a platform, but I'm playing video games. And then like there were women who would show up and just be like, I just want you to stretch. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And I go like this, and they're like, uh, like my arms would like flex, and they're like, oh, this. And I was like, this is fun. I enjoy like I enjoy this. It's not it's kind of objectification, but it's not really. It's also just like appreciation. I was like, oh my gosh, being appreciated by the feminine fucking rules. I want more of that in my life. And so one summer, there was just like I had I had dated a couple people after my marriage fell apart, and it was they were all long-term relationships, like nine months, six months, whatever. And I was like, I've never had a relationship that's been like so it had to be expansive and long. It couldn't just be like, oh, we have a fling and then it's over, right? I because I I had this like thing in my mind where like there was no sex, there was no connection, intimacy without that level of committed relationship. And so that was like ingrained and stuck in me. And I remember one summer just being like, what if I just don't take it so seriously? What if I stop thinking about sex as this mandatory, you have to be bonded to this person forever? Because that's what had ingrained in my head as a kid, right? They told me, like, when you have sex, that energy sticks with you forever. And it's like, there are pieces of that that are true. You know, it's like, but they would tell me, whenever, whenever you do, all the other people you've had sex with are in the room with you. And so I'm like, God, that's fucking creepy. That's awful. And also the way they described it was like God was some sort of like watcher, like, you're not doing that what you're supposed to be doing. I'm like, good God. So I'm like, okay.

Kristin:

Who knew God was a lawyer?

SPEAKER_01:

I know God loves to watch. Oh, yes. But uh so, so this uh I'm I'm in my home state and just visiting family, and I have to go back uh early because it's like the first part of my teacher training. So actually, I have to say, my like my exit from pastoralship, um, working at a church, I was streaming on Twitch and like getting all this attention, and I started to just like become a little bit more intertwined with that. Started doing ministry, and that was height of COVID time, so doing ministry online and like bringing people into the church through like Discord, which is like an online platform and other services, and like getting like 50 to 70 people to watch our online services from all over because we're doing it's like this is really cool. And I had one pastoral friend of mine who was like, this is amazing. And then I had another one who just didn't find it as compelling. And then I called someone a horsecock on Twitch, and I ended up getting fired.

Kristin:

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh it was the whole thing. It was like How did they know?

Kristin:

Were they someone clipped it?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, someone was like, let's clip that. And then one of my students found it, showed it to one of their people who was on like the hiring and firing committee, and was like, was like already pretty upset with like just my general being and my liberalness.

Kristin:

Is horse caught necessarily a bad thing? I mean, they were being one.

SPEAKER_01:

It was pretty awful the way that they were briefing in this game. Anyway, whatever. Needless to say, it got to the point where I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna be a teacher. So I started, I was a teacher for two years, and I was start I was going back for teacher training.

Kristin:

And so I'm waiting like yoga teacher training? No, so like high school. I was teaching high school for high school English. Yeah, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01:

And so I'm going to go to the city. So teacher training.

Kristin:

I think it's teacher training, I think it's yoga for some reason. Okay. High school teacher training. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I get that. That makes a lot of sense. It's like I have to remember the world that I've made that like teacher can be a constitute of things.

SPEAKER_02:

You did a teacher.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. Um, so I'm heading to go back and I'm like, have a few hours before the the airplane's gonna fly out. And I just told my mom, like, hey, I'm gonna go and like see an old friend of mine. Truth is, I had gotten on Tinder while I was in Wisconsin and accidentally matched with someone who was like, They were into casual connection. So like they didn't have time, they had a busy life, they had all these things going on, they had kids, but they still wanted to be able to connect. And so we both were like, Well, I've got a few hours before the airport. And she's like, Well, I've got a few hours off of work. And so I was like, All right. So just got an Airbnb and then we fucked. And it was like, I was like, there it was a fun connection. We were flirting a few like days beforehand and all that stuff like that. And it was like, wow, that was so crazy that that just happened. Like, and she was like, you don't have to like follow up with me. Like you don't have to have any conversations afterwards. Like, I'm okay with yeah, yeah, I don't need that. And I was like, I might text you if that's okay. And she's like, Yeah, you can. But I never heard from her again. And so it was just like, it was a blast. It was so much fun. And it was pleasant and enjoyable and pleasurable, and it felt good, and she was enjoying herself. I told her I was a pastor, and she was like, No fucking way. And I was and she's from my home state, so she's got the accent. So it was funny. We were in the middle of it, and she goes, Oh my God, you're so hot. And I was like, You sound like my aunt. This is like, oh. I was like, it's okay, just get over it. It's fine. You're not. So I'm curious.

Kristin:

Okay. So you didn't have any like feelings of remorse or guilt or shame. Oh one. Okay, okay. I was curious because if you if you looked at you know the world through one window for so long, would it have, you know, would you catch your shirt on it, climb into another window? Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, the first time I had sex, I cried because I was like, oh go to hell.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01:

But that was a long time ago before that. I had like been really working on redoing my sexual ethic, like what I felt was actually good for me and for what what I needed to have. And so I had worked on it to the point where I was like, I'm willing to explore what this looks like and feels like. And as I did the exploring, I was like, this is incredible. So then I started just talking to people about like, yeah, I'm okay with like casual connection. Like I don't, I'm not looking for something serious. I'm just gonna enjoy the experience of being alive. And there were women who were like, I don't want that. And I remember being like, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like you don't have to like just because you find me attractive and I find you attractive doesn't mean that if we match up, we have to make something happen. And so I remember like starting on that path because I was reading like a lot of books about boundaries, like on codependency and how to like break that pattern. And so I was like, Yeah, it's okay. Like you don't have to want that. But I would meet women who were like, Yeah, I do want that. And so I kind of had, you know, these flings throughout throughout this whole summer where there were these women who were just like, Yeah, I'll hook up with you. And I was like, Great, sounds fun. And it was, and it was great. And we would hook up like three or four times, and then maybe it would drop off or once or twice, or maybe it would drop off. Or I had one person that for a couple months they just wanted to come over every Wednesday. And jokingly, I called her Wednesday. Oh, I called her Wednesday because you just came over on Wednesdays, and that's what we did.

Kristin:

I actually have a funny story about that. I was talking to this guy, um, and he was saying like he was it was a first foray into like sugaring or something or being a sugar daddy, and he was so new and he was fresh off of a divorce. Yeah, he's like, Yeah, I met this chick. She's like, You can be Tuesday because she had she had a Monday, a Wednesday, and Thursday, Friday.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

Kristin:

And then I think she took the weekends off or something. Yeah, fair. Or maybe, you know, maybe there's a day off, or but she was like, so my Tuesday is open. I was like, go, girl, that's hilarious. That is awesome.

SPEAKER_01:

Good for her. Yeah, that sounds like my dream.

Kristin:

That's a lot of fun. Okay. Okay, so you're reading all these books on codependency, healing all that, like taking care of your stuff, your inner work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

When did Tantra come into the picture?

SPEAKER_01:

So that was when Samantha came into the picture. Okay, cool.

Kristin:

So I don't even know if I know the full story on that.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm I'll tell you. It's a fun one. Um the so that that's where this came from, actually. It's Samantha and I found each other on Tinder.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01:

We were we were and we have this on our podcast too, but we were going through this like phase of like trying to meet new people. She was married at the time and in an open relationship. So I I knew that. It said it on her profile. And I was kind of like, I've never ever experienced this before. I don't know what that's like. Uh, but I'm open to it, right? So, like just that openness and like what's expansive and liberating, right? Like it kind of came in beforehand, but I didn't know it was taught to her then. Uh, but as we evolved, it was like, oh, okay. So match with her on Tinder, started talking. We're like, oh yeah, we're really into this. Like, this is fun. Um, we met and had dinner and we hooked up, and it was it was fun. She was great, like just beautiful, intelligent, loved to talk about self-growth and development as we both did, and also loved kink and all the things that we were into together. So, and she got up, she got up to go take a shower after we were done, and my jaw hit the floor when she was walking away because her ass is incredible. I was like, there's no way that's real. She does have a good ass. Sally got a great ass. That's right. She does check out her Instagram, it's all over the place. Um, so we met there and then started. She's she was doing an emotional intelligence training program. She had been doing Joe Dispenza and meditations, and she was just realizing like the mayor she was in just wasn't working for her. And it was a really interesting timing because I had also come into the picture, and so it kind of looked like she was like leaving for and chasing another man. But she told me at one point, she's like, I don't know if I'm gonna see anybody. I might be single, and I was like, Okay, like that's fine. I'm totally not in love with you or anything. Like, but I did, I I felt hard for her. We were playing guitar, I was playing guitar for her on the beach, and I looked in her eyes and she was crying from a song that I was playing, and I was like, Well, I love this woman, great. I don't know what to do about this.

Kristin:

Much for that casual connection.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And then I was like kind of seeing each other at the same time, and they all just started to fade away because I was like, I don't really want anyone else but you, like you're you're it. Um and she just she just had this gravitas, she had this power, this strength, and this courage, and also this vulnerability. And that was she had started to do a lot of tantra stuff herself around that time, especially being in like the open community and ENM and stuff like that. She really dove in full hog. And everything that she dove into, she just told me about. And as she started telling me about these different tantric elements, and she went and did some of Leola's classes, and I was like, I I would love to find out more about this. So we ended up going to like some of the play parties that Leola hosted, and from there, literally on the drive back from the first one, Samantha's like, we need to do this in Houston. And I was like, we can do that. And all of my pastoral stuff came back. And I was like, I know how to build community.

Kristin:

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01:

I've been doing it for years, actually. Like that is part of my training in seminary, is to do the leadership process of what it means to build and maintain and transform community. So it just came really naturally, and we've been working at it for the past almost a year. We started in December of last year, and we've got over a hundred people in the community already.

Kristin:

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

It's super admirable. But it's her. Like it's we're we're in tandem. We definitely work together. But she is she's so passionate and she's so vision driven that she knows exactly what she wants moving forward and how to create the like she makes what she wants into a very tangible picture so that it can become reality through I do a lot of the back-end stuff. Like I help with all of the like email templates and getting everything out and like setting up the CRM so that people actually know how to get into the community and things. But because of our like shared dynamic and the relationship that we've built over the past three years now, it's like the community has been so explosive. And it's all based around pleasure. Right. So and you know, because like you know the oldest foundation.

Kristin:

Is there yeah, I'm curious, like what what would you whisper? What would you whisper to like, you know, 16? Would you whisper anything to 16-year-old you or to 16 years old?

SPEAKER_01:

Probably you're gonna be a pastor. Because I call myself. It's your voice now. Um the word pastor.

Kristin:

You still got all those skills to like uh you know implement it in today's space.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

Kristin:

And like you had to go on that ride. And that and I think I've told you this before, it's like you have so many points of reference or um connection because you've experienced um that as a worldview and that as like a practice, and that was your world for a long time, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Truly. I wouldn't I would not change a thing about the way that I got here because I wouldn't have the tools today without that. Even though some of it was really fucking hard. It was intense for moments from from stuff with dad abuse, from stuff with spouse drama, from stuff with my own falling apart at the seams because of relationships that I had that I let define me. But after the transformation and seeing all of that leading up to what we got to make now, I wouldn't change a thing.

Kristin:

I think you said something powerful right there, like letting other people define you versus like you defining you. That's a pretty pretty big shape.

SPEAKER_01:

Does that stick with you too?

Kristin:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, for sure. Or or like the people pleasing or um becoming who other people wanted me to be. And maybe the seeking of love, acceptance, validation, all that stuff outside of myself. That part of it resonates for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That was what codependency was for me. Yeah. And like the the great book by Melody Beattie called Codependence No More. Uh, and then there's another one called The New Codependency.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01:

Both of them, but the new codependency in particular, they talk about how all of that is actually just based around control. That codependency is all about control. Yes. It's like and and and it has 26 ways that you try and maintain control. And then it talks about every single one of them. And I 25 out of the 26, because I didn't have it, also talks about alcoholism and like alcoholic parents and alcoholic spouses. I didn't have that. So that's the one that I was like, I don't really get that. Because it's called a double winner. When you are both codependent, like and an alcoholic yourself, and you have an alcoholic narcissistic partner. It's like you got the whole package.

Kristin:

You signed up for the whole kit and caboodle. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So other than that one, I had every single one of them. And then I journaled for years. Three years I have journals of where I just went through each and every single one of those and kept finding where I was still taught trying to hold on to control.

Kristin:

Ugh, so power. Okay, I'm gonna have to give this book a little go because I remember when the first time my mom was actually, I think, the person that said something about like my control issues.

SPEAKER_02:

And I was like, what? Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin:

I was like, and then but I felt them, you know, at the play party um however many weeks ago at Naked Soul Society. Yeah. Um, I had my first Shibari experience.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh.

Kristin:

And feeling that rope or like that confinement, I immediately felt them kick in, like wanting to control it or like get out or some way. It may be emotional.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

Kristin:

Yeah. And there were some other things that transpired that maybe I'll get into later at a different time on a different podcast. But yeah, I was like, wow. Yeah. I definitely want to do another um Shibari session because it was just so incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Rena's also.

Kristin:

I definitely want to do one with Rena. Um and and keep it in the not like maybe maybe just less erotic, more healing or that kind of thing. Not that the healing not that there's not healing in the erotic, but just like a different tone or intention behind it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So it sounds like you're kind of looking at seeing where your parts will come up around that.

Kristin:

Yeah. Um yes, with my therapist, but not as much as um as y'all have, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell Sure. Yeah. We talk we talk a lot about parts of the thing.

Kristin:

I mean I I I speak into like, okay, there's a part of me that you know, or there's a part of me that has a fear about this or a desire or wants to do this. So I I lean into it, but I don't know all of the framework. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's okay. It's I don't think it has to be. But there's definitely those those pieces of us that we Samantha recently did a huge journey where she found that the part of her was actually the controller that was really her whole being. That was kind of like overshadowing all of it. And that's been like that's been huge for us in the discussion of as we build. It's like, look, the controller is actually really good at what they do. Really good at like keeping us in line, keeping us moving in the direction that we want to, at the detriment of like taking all those other pieces and putting them to the side or like tampering them down, which is so similar to my own story in religion. Like my controller wasn't an internal one, it was an external one. And so she has an internal one, and mine was outside. And since I've looked at the outside and been like, yeah, that doesn't really control me anymore. I don't have an inner controller like that.

Kristin:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

It's very fascinating.

Kristin:

Yeah, that is interesting. Okay, I do, I I wanted to touch on this too. Please. Um, your relationship with Jesus.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

Kristin:

Has it shifted? Is it has how has it evolved?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. It's evolved. It's it has it has over time. Um there the relationship that when I was three years old, my mother told me that I was walking around saying, Jesus is my savior, Jesus is my savior. You know, it's just what I what it was. That's what I knew, right? And I evolved. The the biggest evolution in my relationship with Jesus is that Jesus as the Christ had meant for me that I needed to be saved by an external force. And it has moved into now that whatever it is that Jesus is exists within me. And so my savior does not exist outside of myself. And it used to be I have to look to that cross for me to figure out what it is that I'm okay as a human being. And now it's like, no, that resides. That is it residence in me. And that's a huge shift because that was that was again like buried into us from from the time we were young.

Kristin:

I love looking at that through that lens. Because for me, when I think about it, I'm like, okay, I see it as like love and Christ consciousness and stuff like that. And so I'm like, okay, what would love do? And I I think there's there's nothing that I mean, I love like the pieces of the teachings of love, the treating your neighbors, um, all that stuff. I even like there was something I saw jelly roll posts about, you know, he's like, you know, feed the less fortunate or or the one, you know, even he said something about my the ones in prison and after you're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, after I was hungry and you gave me something to drink, I was thirsty and you ate something to eat, something to drink. I was in prison and you came and visited me. Yeah after 2540. I still know it.

Kristin:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

Well, I told him I called my, I've sent a letter to my friend that's in prison, and I was like, hey, I'm gonna tithe to you this week. I'll put some money on your books.

SPEAKER_02:

That's called me.

Kristin:

I'm like, I'm looking out for the less fortunate. That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it's it's a huge part, and that's still that stuff still sticks with, right? So like the relationship, it's more like internal to external, is the relationship, but the values are still there. Like I I I joke about this. I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fuck you like Jesus would fuck you.

Kristin:

Like, oh my god, people, okay. So I I posted this not too long ago and nobody really caught it. Or maybe one person from back home caught it because I said something about having a self-pleasure session with Jesus. And I've done it. And I was like, okay, how would Jesus touch me? And you know, all this stuff. And I was like, it was so fabulous. Yes. And but one of my friends from like Junior had messaged me. He's like, Kristen, insert middle name, Birdwell. Jesus would not be in your self-pleasure session.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like, wrong. He is wrong. Yeah. I was a joke. We were talking about that at the play party that we were at last. It was like, Jesus would fuck. He would totally fuck. Like, and he'd be good at it because he cares. It's like so that's so compassionate. Present and intimate and present. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, wow, if and that's really so this is funny too, that the level of devotion that is available from Christ consciousness is really powerful. So, and I joke about this where I'm like, I literally have a master's degree in devotion. Like, I know how to devote myself to this presence and this experience. Like, I've been I've been giving and doing some like giving and receiving tantric massages lately. And my goal in that is to show up in that pure devotional state, and I don't really have to work very hard to do that.

Kristin:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's a real gift that I got from Christianity. It was like the opportunity for me to be so deeply entwined with your divinity is I don't know how many people are capable of that. I I'm sure, and I know that it's capable for everyone, but I find myself really blessed to have those combinations of gifts to be able to do that. And that's the energy that comes across, right? That's why that's why people are saying, like, hey, I would love this with you, because it is so easy for me to just drop into that space. And I have my hope is that people can feel that level of devotion within themselves. Because I think there's no way I would have been able to do that if I hadn't devoted myself to the divine, which I once saw outside myself and now see inside myself. So I have that devotion to my own spirit, my own being.

Kristin:

Yes. Oh, so beautiful. Um I love that distinction too. I remember being, this was like maybe 2019 or 2020. I was like out for a walk and I'd ask God for a sign, God universe, spirit, source. Uh, you know, I just called him Gus for a while to shift the relationship because I it used to incite such judgment when I heard that word or that name. And so I was like, okay, how do I rewrite this? But I had asked for a sign of a feather in some way, and I was like walking out somewhere, and I was listening to a podcast, and they talk about this woman that didn't want to put a feather in her hat or something or rebelled against it. And I was like, oh wow. And then I just had this like realization, I was like, wait a second, what if it's not outside of me? What if like actually I'm God, you're God, God's everywhere? Like um, it was just this very pinal, like, oh wow, do do do do moment. Yeah. It's like what I've been searching for my entire life has actually been with me the whole time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. And like the funny thing is that Christianity teaches that. It teaches that the divine and the image of the divine is present with us from every moment that we exist. Aaron Powell Yeah.

Kristin:

And how does it get so skewed then to like I mean religion is about control.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Right? So organized religion is about I want to make everybody. No, they really should. It's one of my favorites, actually. It's like that, yeah, that's your you guys didn't do the book report, clearly. But you said something about like Jesus being present in your like self-pleasure practices and things like that, too. And I'm just curious about that. Like the concept of being like fucked to divinity, right? Like that is so I d I don't know if it's rare or not. It's not rare in my life now, but like I might I want people to experience that so badly. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Kristin:

Like touching God during sex or feeling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like it's really there's a great book by Rob Bell called Sex God. Oh, is it? Okay. It's Rob Bell was an author, or is an author and speaker, um, but he was really prominent when I was going to college in 2006, 2007. Um and he wrote a book called Sex God that talked about how like basically like sex and God are indivisible, like they're they're intertwined with each other. And it's a really brilliant book. But it comes from a guy who is a pastor and was like writ wrote from the Christian perspective. And so people were like, You can't read that book. But not in the not in the college I went to, fortunately, people were really open, but like when b people back home would be like, That's that's not okay. And I'm like, what if what if?

Kristin:

Yeah, what if? And like because then it s shifts to that devotional energy. Or like, what if you're bringing it um your level of being and presence to your even your casual encounters? Like if you're looking for that or treating them as such a divine being.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

And like, how would things shift?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It truly dramatically, I think. Yeah. Well, it's because like there would be it'd be so much easier to have those conversations of like how do I treat you? Like have the conversation beforehand before it gets like out of control and this like and it we love out of control, we love wild and passionate. I'll take it, it's great. But I do want to have that conversation first. And there's so many people who just make these assumptions going into it and like that they just go with what sex has always been for them instead of recognizing this is the moment, this is our moment together in time where it gets to be separated from everything else that's going on, and we get to enter into this exchange of energy with each other that really can be beautiful. And of course, like people have been doing this for millennia, right? Like I'm not the first person to come up with like, oh, I want to put God in sex. It's like that has been everywhere, like Shivan Shakti, you know, as well. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You like exactly it's everywhere.

Kristin:

Mary Magdalene.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, Mary Magdalene. Yeah, exactly. It's it's which I'm fascinated by. Yeah, I would love to get more into that. Oh, not yet. Okay. Because I need to read the Trevor Burrus, okay.

Kristin:

Well, I just finished a book. Um, I think it's called Mary Magdalene Revealed or something. It talks about how ancient text or one of the gospels. Yeah, the the No, they're not because Thomas, of something another gospel, like kind of it called her Jesus' companion.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

Kristin:

Um and then he kissed her on the mouth a lot or something. And I so I love leaning into the idea or notion that they were like a divine partnership reunion type of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: They're they're called the Gnostic Gospels. Um and they just very, very briefly because it's super nerdy, but they were they were set outside of the canon, which is canon just means like official uh text, because of the other things that were in there. It wasn't the Mary and Jesus thing. It was uh Gnosticism was a general heresy that was like the knowledge is secret and hidden and shouldn't be imparted to everybody. And at that time, the people who were in charge of the church were like, no, like it's been we've had this secret crap going on for a really long time. We want this to be available to everybody. So we want to put the things in there that are like, hey, this is open to you, this is open to the world. And then of course it just gets bastardized into secret knowledge again. But um, it wasn't necessarily that the church was like, no one should ever read these. It's just like this doesn't show the whole scope. And so those scopes that it does show, like, I don't know, I don't remember hearing that, like, oh, they burned all those texts. But even if they did, like, yeah, not great. But the church is unaliable. It's their story. And they're really good. But so some of those texts are included in the scriptures that I read because I want to read through those. I want to be able to discern myself and be able to say, like, okay, I want to pick this and put this in or keep this out, and like say, and but you should do that with every text you read.

Kristin:

Yeah, see what resonates with you and like take your own formula.

SPEAKER_01:

Someone said, uh eat the meat, leave the bone. Take the things that stick with you and the things that don't. Don't get it stuck in your collar. Yeah. Yeah. Girl, tell me about it.

Kristin:

Yeah. Yeah. Um because it reminds me, I don't know if it was the canon thing that I read about or how they uh basically did a PR smear campaign from Mary Magdalene and called her a prostitute. And uh how that wasn't true for yeah. And so I was like, oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

There's it's never actually said in the text. Like if you're if you look in the original Greek, that's never the word that's used for her. But there the in the King James version, when 1617 or something like that, when the KJV was instituted, there was a lot of changes that were made to make it more political to support King James's rule, right? And so some of those things were the demonization of women. And so, like really the first English text was one where a massive, massive bastardization and translation issue was present. It's actually a very poor translation. Beautiful poetry, incredible. But the text in and of itself.

Kristin:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01:

They did a they did a fuck ton of mess-ups on that one, I'll tell you that.

Kristin:

Okay, I'm gonna take a peek at my question some of my questions real quick, see if um So yeah, I'd love to hear more about how Jesus and Mary Magdalene got down.

SPEAKER_01:

It'll be fun. Me too. I'm sure she enjoyed herself. Sound like that.

Kristin:

Well, part of me is like, was she impartially responsible for him being so powerful? Or you know, with those practices with the support or like the sacred union.

SPEAKER_01:

Like there's another great book about that. Um The Road to Cana by the author who wrote the vampire diaries. I cannot remember her name. But yeah, visible.

Kristin:

Like the vampire like the not Anne Rice, right? Someone else. It's Anne Rice.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. Yeah. She wrote a book about Jesus.

Kristin:

Oh, wow. But it's but it's like she also wrote like Erotica. She had a diverse.

SPEAKER_01:

She really did. But that book is incredible. It was one of my books in one of my Christology classes, like uh literally classes talking about Jesus.

Kristin:

And it's like the ones with Blistat and stuff, those vampire ones.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin:

Oh God.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. The Road to Cana is what it's called. It's a it's a it's basically a Jesus fanfic, but there's a lot there's a lot of really good stuff in it. And there's about to talk about Jesus' relationship to women. It's fascinating.

Kristin:

Okay. So the one of these questions says how do you create spaces where people feel safe to explore both their shadows and their sensuality?

SPEAKER_01:

Nice. That's a great question. So right now, Samantha and I are creating Tantra 101 classes. Yeah, what are they? Which is like, oh, it's so cool. It's like, where can we get an opportunity to really dive into the very basics? And certainly it doesn't cover everything, but what it does is allows people to ask those questions about like I've always felt shame with my religion or shame with my culture or shame with my parents around sex and sexuality, and they just get to say it. And it's not it's not bastardized, it's not made to be wrong or shamed. It's a space where shame is is free to like melt away. And Samantha's so good at that. Like she is she has a level of dedication to removing shame and clothing that is really astounding. Like she just loves if she's her goal is like, I want everybody to be naked. Like she's just so good at that. So she made like brunch and boobies as well.

Kristin:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Great space for women to be able to, you know, have brunch with their tits out. That's what she says. And then, but also to have that reverence and sacredness, and like you get to choose to your own level of involvement and what's liberating and expansive for you. And so we're working on creating these spaces together through the Tonsha community, and then we host our own play parties where people really can melt away shame. And so many people have said that. They've been like, it was really beautiful. Like there have been lots of parties where like people just they haven't even been having sex, they've just been connected and close to each other in an intimate and vulnerable space, and thought, wow, I never knew that this is what it could be like. Yeah. And you open up that possibility.

Kristin:

Yeah. I mean, because we're not taught that.

SPEAKER_01:

No. We're taught that vulnerability is something to be feared and certainly not just something to do nature.

Kristin:

It's a superpower. Yes. Yes. I mean, it's it can be scary as all get out, right, to be vulnerable, but I think it's like the birthplace of connection and intimacy.

SPEAKER_01:

Deeply. And along the lines of like how to create a safe space is also the way that the energy goes into it. So I mean, and it w I talked about this with someone. So fit in in physics, right? There's there's potential energy and there's kinetic energy. There's probably other types, but don't catch me lying. Um there's potential and kinetic energy. Potential energy is the energy that stores up as it's about to be used. Imagine a boulder perched on top of a hill. All it takes is a one.

Kristin:

I think it's bringing orgasm. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. You're getting we're you're like 10 steps ahead of me. I love it. Yes. Absolutely. Because that's right. You're yeah, you're exactly right.

Kristin:

Cool. Okay. Oh, keep going. That's what it's like. Yeah, welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, that's the last time I've heard that. I'm kidding. I have to do it occasionally just to be silly. But um so silly is welcome. Yes, good. Oh, that's as welcome.

Kristin:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um so imagine the boulder at top of the hill, getting ready. Imagine the orgasm, the brink of orgasm. You're like, uh the creation of that potential energy where you're you're making the environment something that's ready for kinetic energy, which is motion. Things put into motion. So the potential energy is the environment you're creating. It is, and if it's filled with love and connection and compassion, those are all things that are storing up this uh this ball of potential energy. And then once people enter into that space and action starts happening, the ball starts rolling and people start moving into and they feel into their own energy and it just becomes this alive space. Um, but if you bring in the energy of like expectation, or you bring in the energy of what am I gonna get out of this only? Like if you bring in this like selfish, and not selfish, if you bring in this egocentric energy, right? Where like, oh, it has to be all about me and me looking good, that is what is going to act out in the kinetic energy. It's gonna become real because you created the potential for it. So, really, how to create safe spaces is to curate the potential energy of an environment into something that people can walk into and begin action, and that energy that was stored up just flows naturally. So, in order to do that, is really here. It all starts here. What is the energy of my heart? I I notice if I'm going into it and I'm not grounded, I have to stop. And I've done this before at Tonsra 101 with Samantha too, where one of us has been just a little off and we've looked at each other and been like, can we ground for a second? And she's like, Oh yeah, thank you. Or I'm like, Oh yeah, thank you. And then we just pause, we do our sound breath and movement, and we get back into it.

Kristin:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because then our energy is righted and aligned.

Kristin:

Mm-hmm. It is. I I mean, it's amazing what a breath will do.

SPEAKER_01:

Simple, right?

Kristin:

Right? There's a breath with sound. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Samantha says somewhere she read, it is equivalent to 10 minutes of meditation when you do in a verbal exhale. Right. We got it.

Kristin:

He I was a better meditator than I thought. Take that insight app. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Fuck you.

Kristin:

Oh, okay. Here's one. I know we okay, we talked about what we would say to the younger self. Switching gears a little bit. Um, if your younger you know self could see you now, like, what do you think they'd say or think?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my god, they judge the fuck out of me so fast. I was I had said this to Samantha too. My younger version of me would not be attracted to the version of you. It it he couldn't because he had this idea of what it needed to be. And he had no openness. He was very closed, especially my 16-year-old self. It was, you know, I'm the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. John 14, 6. That's it. That was all that it was.

Kristin:

That's the sick yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It became very he'd be he would be very narrow-minded and he would be kind of shocked and probably a little like, really? Like this is the path that you chose? But obviously, like what an evolution. Yeah, truly. And I mean, that was what, 20 years ago?

Kristin:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

That that saying that verse is the same one that my friend used whenever she was telling me that she was scared I was gonna go to hell.

SPEAKER_01:

I know. And I would literally just talk to you.

Kristin:

How do you not know that I have a relationship with Jesus? It just looks different than yours.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's the decent I I had this conversation this morning. I said, maybe when people look at that verse, they see that there's this like, okay, Jesus is the way. But maybe what he's actually doing there is saying, Do you see the way that I'm living my life? Like if you want a heaven on earth, live like I'm living. Not the only way you're gonna get there is through me. It's uh Jesus wasn't saying I'm the barrier, right?

Kristin:

Well, I mean, even if you take it like the only way you're gonna get there through me is if you look at it as like love, uh-huh, well, then how would the heaven on earth be created? It would be the through love. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, you're exactly right.

Kristin:

At least I think. Yeah. Um it's like interesting. The interpretations or spins are the things that you know we can fixate on.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's just the English translation. That's not the original Greek. Oh, yeah. Which I can read.

Kristin:

That is fascinating. So fun.

SPEAKER_01:

Like a giant nerd.

Kristin:

Wow. No, I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like, we all have our like little I want to start reading Sanskrit so I can read the tantras. Oh, that would be fun. Anyway.

Kristin:

Oh, so neat. Okay. Oh, this says, okay, uh, what sermon would you give today if you were back in front of a congregation?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh so funny. I actually got to preach recently because I was a guest preacher.

Kristin:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01:

So the one okay. If I were to preach today, what I would preach is I would uh preach on true oneness. Like the uh the ability for all of us to be actually like unified because that is what so much of the message of the church has been recently is division, is that these people are bad, these people are good, and uh only if you're in the good category are you gonna stay with us, right? Um also my denomination is unique in that we don't have as much of that uh because we know we have reconciling churches that are like open for everybody. Um so if I were to stand up and I were to give a sermon, uh it would be how everything is everything is connected, and you can't separate this divinity that exists within the character of Jesus from the divinity that shows up in our everyday actions towards each other. So kind of what I've been talking about. But depending on if there are kids or not in the audience, I'd also throw in some sex stuff and be like the way that like that plays into it. Yeah, I want to hear that. That's an untapped resource that we are not working with in the church that could really be powerful anyway. And the way that we are uh not we, but the way that a lot of the people in the church are using sex is just so twisted and fucking broken. I mean, you know, there's lots of Catholic jokes for that reason.

Kristin:

I was just thinking of that. Like, okay, well, what if it was kind of brought more to light, what else wouldn't be done in the shadows?

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly, exactly. Because our shadows are going to show up one way or another. So and I I can't tell you how many articles I read about youth pastors in Baptist churches who have who have hurt and harmed children, who, if you really want to get into the Bible and what it says, you know, what Jesus says about people like that is it'd be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and throw it to the bottom of the sea. That is Jesus'. Yes.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I know, right? It's rad.

Kristin:

Well, I love that you know, there's there's pieces like that. Um, and then I don't because I don't remember. I'm like, don't quiz me. Vacation Bible school was a long time ago. Although I do read some like now, I I am like combing through to see what resonates with me. It's like a little daily reading that I have, and like it's a little thing. But I love that because it shows the humanness too.

SPEAKER_01:

There is so much variance. As you know, right? There's so much nuance to this, to this world. And for anybody to go in and declare, like, I have the answer, it's like, there's no way, bud. There's no way you got it. And it's always a man. It's always a man who's saying I have the answer. Oh yeah, sure, okay, bud.

Kristin:

Yeah. I mean, it's fun to search for the meaning or the answer, but to declare that you have it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for everybody else.

Kristin:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like, yeah, I'm really glad that you found your answer. That is beautiful for you. And I don't ever want to stop that. But the moment you start telling me that has to be my answer to, that's fucked up. It's not the way that we want to live.

Kristin:

Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. Okay. Fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_01:

My gospel now is the first word that comes to mind is sex, but I need to be more clear. Right. Um Yeah. The gospel now is that you can find God in everything. And that includes sex. And it should include sex.

Kristin:

Yes. Um, I was thinking the other day how I was like, well, if you even just think about like the omniscient, omnipresent type of thing, then if God is everywhere, that includes the bedroom.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right.

Kristin:

It's that it's not just like everything but that little corner.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right, right, yeah, exactly. It's like God stands outside just looking in creeper. No, it's like we're okay.

Kristin:

I'm like, we have a little bit more time. Um I have like this lightning round thing, but I don't know how many Yeah. Oh, it says preacher voice or bedroom voice. Which one gets more amen? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. They they are one and the same at this point.

Kristin:

Amen.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, when you when you break it down, when it gets down really low, you really have to drive in a point. Yeah, anyway. That's so that I can't.

Kristin:

We can do some ASMR. Yeah, let's whisper and little Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Come here and get on your knees for me. It's the same voice. You know? Yeah. Lay down at my altar. I will show you how to be worshiped.

Kristin:

Yeah, it's like the quiet storm.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, nice. I love it.

Kristin:

On at night, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Most worship most worship songs are inherently sexual. So when something's like Jesus is coming down the road, I'm like, oh, wow, okay.

Kristin:

Yeah. Okay. Let's see here. Mm-mm-mm. Hmm. I don't know. I don't know if any of these really like resonate with what um what what I'm feeling now. Let's see. Like, is there anything that's filling alive for you that you want to do that?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm curious about like the ways that, especially growing up in Texas. Like, what are the ways in which like religion and sexuality influenced you?

Kristin:

Um I was rebellious. Nice. So um I would say there that there was that piece. It just, I remember going to like my grew up in a super small town. There's like church on every corner. Um, there's the church that the cool kids went. There's yeah. And then um then there was this other one. I just remember it didn't sit with me. Like the piece about um, oh, if you um like the brimstone piece, like oh, if you get in a car wreck on the way home tonight, are you gonna be on the right side of heaven or Jesus, you know? And that just never, I was like, that doesn't sit.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

Kristin:

Um, I love that I have that perspective that I grew up with so that I can, it's like points of resonance and I understand it and I know it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

Kristin:

And um, it created a lot of like taboo enticement too, because I am super drawn to the taboo. I always have been. Like, or or if you tell me I can't do something, I'm gonna kick back against that and like have a little rebellious energy. Um, but then so I had that, and then I also had my stepdad tell me at one point, he pulled up a map of religion on the computer and he was like, You only um, because I asked why we weren't going to church anymore. And he said, You likely only believe what you grew up around, and it was all color-coded. And that was just a very like paradigm shifting shift moment because um I was like, okay, if that's true for religion, then what else is that true for? Everything. So it maybe it spurred this like want to go do it, see an experience type of thing. Um, yeah, but I there was a piece of it too that was like, okay, maybe I just keep it to myself. So even if I was having a lot of that rebellious like energy or experimentation or that sort of thing, it's like nobody can know about this. Yeah, which even whenever I named my book, it was not called Sex, Drugs, and Soul initially. Yeah, it was called The Scenic Route Home. And they're like, Well, tell us about it. And I was like, Well, it's sex, drugs, and soul, or it's like sex, drugs, and then the tapping into the soul part. Like, that's your title. Right. That's what's going to make people curious. Yeah. Leading up to publishing, though, it felt like my skin was crawling. The release of any remaining shame, or like, okay, this is what I'm stepping into.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

This is what I'm claiming.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Kristin:

I'm going to be a sex chick.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's you. Yes.

Kristin:

Wow. It's very contrasting to the good girl image that I've represented or presented for so long.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I hear that. And I I I get that too, in the sense of a lot of that same stuff has happened for me in that you know, my my dad passed away in 2017. But uh and and if he was still alive, oh my God, I would hear about it every day. But I don't. So but like my mom and my brother and my sister, you know, they are still around. And my brother was a wild child in high school. He was the rebellious one going nuts. Way things that I was like, I didn't even know you could do that at 14 years old. Like but and I was the goody two shoes boy. But now we've kind of switched. I'm doing a little bit more wild things, but consciously. And you know, he's going to church now and he's got a wife and with a baby on the way, and like, you know, he's settled down, right? Um but like when I tell I don't tell my mom and my sister about this stuff. I just I can't. And you know, they know I have podcasts out there, they know kind of what I'm doing, but we just don't really talk about it. Yeah. Like it just kind of bugs.

Kristin:

Yeah, my mom asked me, um, she she's like, What are you doing? Or and I said, like, I had a client. She's like, What kind of client? And I said, like a tantra client. She's like, What is Tantra? I was like, Well, do you really want to go here?

SPEAKER_01:

How much time do you got, Mom? And yeah.

Kristin:

Sometimes I ask what you really want to know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because this is gonna be a fun answer for you, mom.

Kristin:

Yeah. Which I mean, she loves me regardless. I will say, like, I've been the wild hippie one or the the unicorn of the family for a while that um that it's just kind of like a course. But um, there's you know, there's still she just has a different outlook perspective and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

That's fair.

Kristin:

But yeah, it definitely like created like I guess like the duplicity living for a while.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

Kristin:

So this feels just like me being who I am.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you getting to be authentic and being who you are. Yeah. And that's that's really huge. I think if there's anything that comes out of this, it's like what I recognize is that, yeah, I've I've grown up in a really unique way and I've been able to apply my gifts in a really unique way. But if I wasn't, I wouldn't be living my authentic life. Like I have to like hold on to not hold on to, like grasp onto. But I'd really appreciate the way that the things I've learned have informed how I live today. And if I were to just be like, oh yeah, that doesn't matter, I wouldn't be living authentically. Yeah. Even if some people might look at me and be like, dude, you talk about Jesus a lot for someone who also fucks. Well Yeah, you're right. And that's okay.

Kristin:

Yeah, do spoke to me. Don't talk about that. Oh, there are a lot of loftiers.

SPEAKER_01:

So there's uh so with with this like divinity piece, right? It's my question for you is like there's there's so much talk about like the divine masculine and the divine feminine and like all these energies in the world of Tantra, right? Like that's fair to say. So like my question for you is have you seen really what those begin to look like? And have you seen more divine feminine? Have you seen more divine masculine? And I'm not saying like in women or in men, just like in general, which are those energies or maybe both of them.

Kristin:

I feel like there's definitely a a shift or a rebalancing happening right now. Um like uh and that's what I feel like it is, like the rebalancing versus cause like being in the patriarchal kind of realm for so long. I think it's you know, not hating on that, but it just rebalancing things coming back into that kind of space. And so I see that. But I'm also looking for it. So I don't know how much of it is by brain finding the evidence to support like my beliefs or ideology or like what is transpiring. Because I feel like sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm all my feed is like Tantra. Yeah all of a sudden. So I have to step back sometimes and realize like this isn't like the mainstream thing yet.

SPEAKER_01:

This is not the way this is not the world at large, right?

Kristin:

So it's like, okay, I'm like, is it, or is it just like what I'm seeing or shift seeing uh shift? But I will say with my work with men, it's been um super, super paradigm shifting as far as like what they're coming to work on or what they want to experience, um how they're um moving forward in the world afterwards. I mean, that's gonna have ripples and ripples and ripples. So yeah, in some ways.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. I love to hear that because I think I think there is I I'm getting there. I think I have this this part of me that still is very much like angry at men. Um because of, you know, because of dad stuff, right? Because but also just because even the ones that I encounter many times, I'm like this is not it. Like this is not the energy that I'm wanting to be around.

Kristin:

Yeah, it's providing the contrast for this is like the the outer boundary or like the um the you know, when you go bowling and you have the bumper, you're like, okay, here's the outlook.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's when I talked about the soccer field before, that's what I kind of mean, is like there it's there's a lot of room to run around. But there are some clear out-of bounds, too. Like, let's we don't need to go there.

Kristin:

Yeah, like the one you mentioned with the mealstone. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. That's way out of round.

Kristin:

I know, okay. So we're out of time. Do you drop anything you want to drop? Um points of connection or offer anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So y'all can find me on Instagram at Anthony.underscore Michael. That's a great way to find me. Um I also find Samantha. She's she's really doing incredible Tantra work. Uh Samantha Oh no, hers is Houston Tantra Girl.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's great.

SPEAKER_01:

So those are great places for us to be uh contacted and connected with, especially if you're looking for a community in Houston. For sure. And it's awesome, and there's great places here, but there haven't been a lot in Houston.

Kristin:

There hasn't been a lot in Houston, and I love to see it grow and develop there. Because Houston's always kind of been like a for me.

SPEAKER_01:

There's been some results.

Kristin:

It spakes back to like way, way, way earlier trauma and big city.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a huge city. So there's a lot more expansion now where we're getting to the place where it's very welcome.

Kristin:

So I think that's a ship. That's that's you know, the evidence. Woohoo! Okay, awesome. Well, thank you guys for tuning in. Love you. Bye. Thank you for being here, love, for listening with your whole heart, for listening to the very end, and for walking this wild path with me. If today's episode stirred something in you, whether a giggle, a tear, or a full body yes, don't keep it to yourself. Share the magic, leave a review, drop me a note, or send it to a fellow sacred rebel who needs it. And remember, your story is sacred, your desires are divine, and your mess is part of the masterpiece. Keep showing up, keep feeling it all, and keep turning your life into poetry. Until next time, stay wild, stay tender, and stay true to that beautiful soul of yours. All my love, Kristen.