Sex, Drugs, & Soul

Modern Masculinity, Intentional Intimacy, & Choosing a ‘Good Enough’ Partner | A No BS Convo w/ Jordan Bowditch

• Kristin Birdwell • Season 4 • Episode 6

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“My relationship is the most important aspect of my life. Everything overflows from that. It is the most tangible way of communing with God & experiencing heaven on earth.” #goals

Men’s coach and intimacy guide Jordan Bowditch joins for a playfully sincere, no BS talk on modern masculinity, intentional intimacy, radical honesty, and choosing partnership in today’s world.

We get into how he and his wife keep passion alive after kids, navigating grief, their monogamish chapter, sex check-ins, and why scheduling intimacy is a game-changer. We also explore masculine/feminine dynamics, the “good enough partner” philosophy, and how faith and mysticism shape our outlook.

Jordan shares personal stories, realistic practices, and insights that make this one both grounded, playful, and valuable... great one for anyone navigating love, dating, sex, and commitment in a modern landscape.

Timestamps:
00:00 – Icebreaker: What’s turning Jordan on in life right now
02:00 – Fatherhood, aliveness, and marriage expansion
03:20 – Monogamish marriage and defining their container
07:00 – Weekly relationship check-ins & honest communication
10:00 – Scheduling sex and keeping intimacy intentional
13:00 – Building a sex dungeon (permission to play 😏)
18:00 – Relationship practices after kids
25:00 – Masculine/feminine dynamics and modern masculinity
39:00 – “Good enough love” and relationship clarity
44:00 – Deal-makers, deal-breakers, and choosing a partnership
48:00 – Shared vision & calling in committed love
50:00 – Faith, mysticism, and Jesus
56:00 – Jordan’s offerings & playful closing

Books Mentioned:
No More Mr Nice Guy - Dr. Robert Glover
The Way of The Superior Man - David Deida
Radical Honesty - Brad Blanton

Connect with Jordan:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jordanbowditch/
Website: https://www.universityofman.com/manmeet

Connect with Kristin:
Website
Instagram
YouTube

Kristin's Best-Selling Book:
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Kristin (00:00.494)
I feel a little nervous today and I don't know why. Welcome back to another episode of Sex, Drugs, and Soul. Today I have on Jordan Bowditch. He's a men's coach and intimacy guide, community builder, edutainer. I'm totally down to be edutain today. Yeah, I love your whole playful essence, playful sincerity. think playfulness is so important. And he's also the founder of University of Man and Sex and Love Co.

And yeah, I like to kind of start, or I'm starting to start to like doing this, asking, yeah. I'm like, what's a question I can ask every single guest? And I wanna start asking every guest, like, what's turning you on in life right now? Or like, what's making you feel the most alive in this season?

Jordan Bowditch (00:51.832)
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, when you rephrase it to alive, it changed a little bit, turn on, maybe I'll speak to both, but alive is my son. He's 15 months old, almost 15 and a half. I should give you the exact days. My wife probably could. And we just got home from traveling. And it was the first time we've traveled with him since he's been able to walk and talk. Last time was maybe six months ago when he wasn't walking or talking really yet.

And so we went and visited some friends and it was, it was a hero's journey.

OK, yeah, I was about to ask, how is traveling with a little man?

the travel day out there in the middle of it, I'm like, we're never doing this again. It was like pretty miserable. And like mostly on my wife, the women, the caretaker, especially in those early months and years. But what does kill you make stronger? I've heard it said and I resonate with that. And so we had an awesome time with some of our closest friends. And yeah, and he and I in particular, father son have been connecting more in recent.

It lasts, call it two to four months in particular. And yeah, so just more layers of love are unfolding there. And having kids has been so far the most spiritual journey I could ever imagine. So I feel very alive there. as far as turn on goes, I mean, I'm turned on, but maybe in a different way. My wife continues to expand in her feminine radiance as she, she's just,

Jordan Bowditch (02:26.87)
an incredible mom and such a self-aware and committed human being. And that's just super hot. It's, you know, we've been together for about eight years, married for four, and it just continues to get better. It's hard and it's not always the most glamorous and it's yeah, just different than the early days, the honeymoon phase and all that. But I truly continue to be, fall more in love with her and be more attracted to her.

And yeah, so think the turn on is her becoming more and more of an integrated mom and.

I love that. Are there any practices that y'all have implemented from the get-go or that have helped to keep that relationship thriving? Okay, yeah, I'm curious because I feel like that's such a beautiful relationship and sentiment. So I'm like, okay, let's give me and the people listening some tips and insight tricks.

others many.

Jordan Bowditch (03:24.96)
I think at a high level, very early on when we got together, we aligned with a mantra, out is not an option. We're all in and out is not an option. And creating that safety, that security, that commitment, it just gives a sandbox to play in. It's like, okay, cool. You're not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere. Then let's fuck around and find out. let's push some edges.

say the quiet part out loud early and often. I just trust that our partner can handle it. And so from there, it's just the world is our oyster. There's nothing that we can't talk about. And that's really important to me in any kind of relationship is if by being honest, of me being open and honest and direct with what I want, think and feel, if that can scare you away, if that can ruin our relationship, then it's not meant to be.

Or if that happens in the short term, you know, if like acutely there's a rupture and it quote ruins things I Trust that either that's meant to be or we will come back and repair and be stronger and better than ever So I think that that's that's the foundation of our relationship And then and then from there it's you know, we've we've played with others. So we had a season of life where we were monogamish when this was Yeah

basically up until we got engaged and then a little bit in our engagement and then once we got married, we're all right, we're full on monogamous. And then it's been like that ever since. And then becoming parents to just, the stakes are higher. The risk reward ratio, I think just shifts. And we may or may not ever go back to that. I'm not fundamentally opposed to it and tread lightly. And it was something that we were not willy nilly about it whatsoever.

by no means an open relationship and monogamish can be something very different to any person you talk to. But for us, we had very specific defined boundaries around that. Yeah, and then the other thing I would say, and maybe we'll talk about this a little bit more, but conscious kink and BDSM dynamics. So much so that we, as a part of reviving our sex life post having kids, we built a sex dungeon.

Jordan Bowditch (05:51.914)
I call it a sex dungeon, it's a little dramatic, but it's called permission. And we have like this cool neon site that we had made that says permission. And so we have an apartment above our garage and we turned it into just a really sexy space. And so we have all kinds of toys. Some people call it a sex addict, exactly. Not addict.

Sex addict.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the twang.

And so beginning of this year, we started building that out and we even had an event there with some of our closest couple's friends and did like a Shabari performance. We hired someone to come in and do that. And so, yeah, I think pushing edges and just being open and curious and not taking it personal when one of us comes to one another and has a desire, just because I want more doesn't mean you're not enough. So those are some aspects.

Yeah, I feel like it's cool that you've given yourself permission to evolve and play. Permission? Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I've kind of pinballed, you know, I'm like in this explorer or finding out what suits Kristen or, know, or like giving myself permission. Like, am I more of an open? But I'm like finding myself back to this more traditional kind of place or monogamish or kind of creating something that fits me and a partner that I'm calling in.

Jordan Bowditch (06:50.722)
Permission granted.

Kristin (07:12.974)
And I'm curious, like, I guess the conversations that you have to have, like, do y'all have, like, scheduled check-in points or? Okay.

Yeah, we have a relationship check-in. And we even build out like a guide that's on our website. And it's cool, it's really cool. And we're actually in the process of revamping it. We've lived a lot of life since we originally created it, so there's some upgrades. And we just continue to orient more to where we're at and where we're going. And so, yeah, we have a PDF. We don't use it anymore because we have it pretty dialed in for ourselves. But it's looking at the week. It's our Monday morning huddle.

throughout the year, sometimes it's on Sunday. It needs for us, we find that switching it up and having a little bit of that novelty and just shaking up the pattern is really important. Otherwise it gets little stale, stagnant, complacent, those kinds of things. We'll check where she is in her cycle, because that impacts things. Geez, I wish I would have known that a long time ago.

Time.

Kristin (08:15.982)
I'm when I'm ovulating.

Exactly. And, man, just before my wife, so her whole brand of herself is that sex chick. Before her, I was just this naive, ignorant combination of both young man that thought, I can get a woman pregnant anytime, anywhere. Be careful, be afraid. All that kind of stuff, little did I know, there's a lot of nuances there. So yeah, in our check-in, we have like a list of questions, and again, these change depending on the season.

What are you excited about for this week? What's something you're gonna do that you'll feel proud of yourself today? What's something that unique you love about me? How can I uniquely support you? What is something you're afraid to tell me? Sometimes we skip that question because our Monday morning huddle is meant to be only 30 minutes. We've expanded it to 60 minutes recently. And sometimes that question can open up a lot of energy and on a Monday morning might not be the most ideal time to go there. But we'll...

we'll navigate that together. Like, hey, I have something, but it feels like maybe this would be better for another time. And we have a shared calendar, which I'm getting very practical here, but this stuff matters. And it's like our shared calendar is Jordan does Alexa. I love that. Which we've had for many years. And it's color coded on our shared Google calendar. And she can see my personal stuff, her personal stuff, our work stuff, all that. We also schedule sex.

Scheduling sex is the move. And I get the story around, but it needs to be spontaneous. Otherwise it's forced. Good luck with that as a sustainable strategy. I know very few couples that don't have a level of intentionally around their sex life and their sex life is thriving. There is a strong correlation there. And yeah, we very much found that as we just life had more demands. We got more comfortable with one another that

Jordan Bowditch (10:09.888)
If we don't schedule sex at least once a week, usually two or three times a week, then it might get missed in a week. And that's not good for our relationship. And it's not just about sex being fun and connective. Obviously that all matters, but sex is critical to our relationship, to our individual and collective wellbeing, our harmony. It's the most supernatural act and experience known to mankind. It literally creates life, my son.

came from that when I came. And it's like, come in daddy. exactly, come on. Use a strong swim in that one. Yeah, and it's the literal creation of life. is simultaneously the most pleasurable, orgasmic experience that's like otherworldly. And it's the source of generally the most shame. And so it's just like big volatile, volatile energy. And

I'm

Jordan Bowditch (11:08.95)
navigating that together, just, it's the ultimate alchemizing agent. And so, yeah, I think that that is critical for the longevity of any relationship is to put a lot of intention and sincerity around that.

Yeah, I just think that it speaks to that you're prioritizing it. And like the story that you can spin around it can shift, right? If you're telling, it's going to take the spot. actually could be a way to introduce novelty. You're just making time for it. yeah, I'm curious, like 30 minutes, an hour, like what are we, hours?

It depends. And so we have different buckets in our intimacy domain. we have sexploration is one of them. so that, we have quickies. So we'll do like a 30 minute quickie will be on the calendar. Sexploration, usually at least 60 minutes, sometimes 90 minutes to a couple hours. And sexploration is we're gonna try something new. And each of these creates a minimum effective dose of expectation to where

Okay. Going into sex exploration, this might be a little awkward. We're to try something new and we may or may not even have sex, but we're going to try a new toy. We're going to watch like some conscious porn and like, or yeah, we just might do something different. so having a little bit of space for grace in that, uh, is we find really powerful. And then another one is. King or queen worship, or you can call it God or goddess worship, whatever verbage you like. And so when we're at our best.

Every other week we alternate that. So say this week is King Worship, then for one to two hours, she creates an experience for me. And like the focus is on supporting, serving, loving me in that way. And then the next week I'll do the same thing for her. And she gets to just surrender in that, into that container that I create. And it can be so simple. And this is something I'm speaking to my, I'm reminding myself. And certainly when I was first navigating these, this domain, I felt like it had to be.

Jordan Bowditch (13:08.92)
perfect, like really clever, really just dialed in. And it's fine to approach it with that level of care, but it, just a few little things make all the difference. Even again, just having on the calendar makes all the difference, even if nothing else happens. And then there's another bucket that I'm forgetting, but those are the main ones. The quickies, exploration, king, queen, worship. If you have those interspersed on your calendar,

You'll do well. Yeah.

I love that. I love the King, Queen worship. I'm like, because it's an opportunity to just receive to feel honored and cherished. If someone or a couple is navigating like a sexless time period, is that kind of like some of the first key points that you go to as far as like scheduling or what would like or like they're seeking to rekindle or reignite that passion and desire? Like what do you suggest to tackle first?

Yeah, it certainly depends. If they're not having sex, that's usually symptomatic of something. And so it might be as easy, doesn't mean it's easy, but as easy as, yeah, you just need to start scheduling sex. It might be that there's not significant tension or unseds under the surface. We're just not prioritizing this and we need to prioritize it. And something I like to say about relationships in general is, and I've heard,

forget who it was, it like a famous investor. The most important business decision you'll make is choosing your significant other. taking that a step further, my romantic relationship is the most important aspect of my life. Because when that sucks, everything sucks. When that's great, everything's great. No matter, even if surface level shit isn't all that great, if my relationship is solid and I'm prioritizing that, everything overflows from that. I just believe that that sacred mirror

Jordan Bowditch (15:05.122)
that experience, partnership is, yeah, I would say that it is the most tangible way of commuting with God and experiencing heaven on earth is like what's possible in that container. And so treating it as such is something I very much champion. And so yeah, it might be scheduling sex. If there's some deeper shit, then we need to have those conversations. And I'll make it personal.

Pregnancy was hard for us. Yeah, it was just, it was a gnarly journey and it's hard for everyone. I don't think it's easy for anyone and it's all relative, but for us, we had an early miscarriage and then we had a late term loss. And that season, there was a month where we were just getting hammered. My dog died, who was like my boy. was, for all intents and purposes, he was my first son. Like that was...

Got him as a young man, I've been tattooed on my leg and Biggie James Smalls, my blue-nosed pit bull. he was just, he was my guy. And he passed when we were on vacation unexpectedly. He was getting older and we knew he had cancer, but it didn't seem like it was going to happen to dad abruptly. My wife at that time was, think about 18, 18 20 weeks pregnant. We were surprised with a Down syndrome diagnosis.

Okay.

Jordan Bowditch (16:28.282)
And that was just like rocked our world. Like, my God, okay, this is gonna be a very different journey than we expected. And no sooner do we start to not only accept, but even embrace and start to get excited about it. And I was like, you know, calling him my little downy dude. And we were like starting to connect with the community and listening to podcasts. And it was like two to three weeks after that, she went unexpectedly into labor and yeah, he was born and died.

with us and it was surreal and like so beautiful and so special and so fucked up and challenging and it, I mean, it just destroyed my wife. And so that season of like unimaginable grief really challenged the foundation of our relationship. And it was basically

I mean, you could even say two plus years of just the whole process of getting pregnant before we actually had our son Isaiah. And there was just a lot of, we weren't having much sex. There was a lot of repressed resentment. And all that to say, we actually couldn't do it on our own. Like we couldn't come back to love on our own. And that's another mantra of ours is come back to love. And it's like something that when we get in conflict,

Whoever comes back to love first wins. This is something we got from a mentor and friend of ours, Annie Lala, shout out. Amazing woman, follow her on Instagram, incredible. She's here in Austin as well. And so we couldn't come back to love. And we actually engaged a couple in our community that are some of our best friends, you know, and this is something I think is really important to share. A strong belief and personal experience I have is for couples to thrive, they need other couples. And that, that like,

couple's mastermind energy where you got the men, you got the women, you got the couples. And those three entities, I think that's the trifecta, that's the Holy Trinity, if you will. And so we had a couple, this part of our core group, come over and mediate. And it wasn't even that they are so good at that, they are, but it was more a third party energy to hold us accountable to staying in our hearts, to...

Jordan Bowditch (18:55.63)
keeping our shit together. And that really helped change the trajectory and helped us come back to connection and harmony. And so all that to say, if a couple finds themselves in disconnection, doing it on your own is tough. I don't think we're meant to. think it's the exception, not the rule that you can do that effectively and sustainably. And that's just like one of many times where we've gotten third party support.

Going to a retreat can be huge. mean, relatively early on in our relationship, we, we just knew that there was the opportunity for more in our romance and our sex life and our relationship. And so we went to a conscious kink retreat and being held by someone else and being seen by others and seeing them, that can be incredibly effective. And then I guess the last thing I'll say for now, just

circling back to the men, women, couples. Men being in connection with other awesome men, high integrity dudes that will ruthlessly reflect truth to you. And then women having their version of that. I think couples must have that once again to have a truly thriving relationship.

I think that that's important too. Or to prioritize being seen. And thank you for sharing that. I'm like, if you can navigate that, I think you can navigate just about anything. And I think there's an importance of being witnessed and seen with both sexes too. I think there is something really, I don't know, important or sacred or about women being with men and men being with men.

I mean, kind of want to circle back to some of the all-in mentality and focus. I'm curious how long y'all were together before y'all were like, okay, we're all in. And then I also am curious about some of the key questions that we should be asking ourselves if we are desiring that partnership. What do we need to get clear with ourselves first?

Jordan Bowditch (20:58.99)
Yeah, this is great. We were all in pretty quickly. The stars were aligned, you could say. We were both 29, coming on 30. And I it's important to note, again, personal and professional belief and experience would inform that that's the sweet spot, especially for men. I think it's 30, right around 30, a man has lived enough life.

He's had enough experiences. He has a sense of who he is and confidence. Core values are fairly well established. Every year past 30, I think it gets orders of magnitude more challenging for a man to commit to a woman. Yes. And this is something I've been-

change my age range. I know.

And of course, it's not a hard fast rule, but it's something that I've definitely observed. so, and for women, I think women, I think it's just different for women. I don't even feel comfortable commenting on like what that is for women. I think it's younger. It can be younger, but I don't think age is as big of a factor for women. Yeah, that said, without getting like too much in this story, actually, this is, I'll share some of our love story.

Yay! I love- yeah, please give it to me. Okay.

Jordan Bowditch (22:20.258)
We met on Facebook. You know, again, this was about eight years ago, so Facebook was a little bit of a different social media landscape. I had been peeping her from afar for a hot minute.

Liking things? yeah, you know, just a little flirt.

Yes, it might have been. This might have been post-poke. I don't know about pre-poke, but yes, I was poking her energetically and eventually, literally. And, you know, if I know myself how I think I know myself, I would peruse the mutual friends list here and there and saw this hot, tatted up chick talking about sex, 50 mutual friends, ad friend. Let's see where this goes. And I was very much in what I call

my conscious fuck boy stage. I'd been in that for, yeah, a few years. Yeah, right, exactly. It was where I started, I kind of latched onto some concepts and phrases. was, anti-game is the best game, which is, know, authenticity vulnerability where I'm buzzwords, hot on those buzzwords. I'd be on a date and yeah, it's like.

I didn't know those two terms went together.

Kristin (23:22.765)
The buzzword? Okay.

Jordan Bowditch (23:30.018)
I would share, I feel nervous. I would just be honest with how I really felt and I knew this works. Chicks love this shit. And so that's why I call it conscious fuckboy. I was still a fuckboy. I was just playing like a more conscious game. And when I came across her, I was in the thick of it, but I was like on the tail end of it where I was like, okay, yeah, this has an expiration date. And I had a couple relationships in that like six month season that I just learned a lot from.

Yeah, and one was I had gotten out of a relationship with someone that had the power couple energy around it. And it was what I thought I wanted. And then I was like, I actually don't want this. I wasn't ready for it. And there's plenty of other reasons. But then I swung the pendulum the other way. was like, man, I just kind of want a trad wife kind of experience. I just want a chick that's fucking hot, that's simple, that's not dumb, but doesn't challenge me. And it's just like, it's just easy. And God gave me that.

And she was so sweet and there was like strong chemistry and I just knew pretty quickly, this ain't it. This is not actually what I want.

I like to be poked

I need to get poked sometimes. Boy needs a good poke. And I was pretty proud of how I navigated that because, Gil, a little edgy here in specific. I could have had sex with her. She wanted to have sex. I wanted to have sex. And I was feeling just the growing lack of integrity in that because while I was being honest with her, and this was part of the conscious fuck boy energy is radical honesty.

Jordan Bowditch (25:08.558)
But being honest with her that I'm not ready, willing and able to get into a relationship, but I really like you and I'm enjoying this. Who's ever heard that story before? And, and she was claiming she was okay with that, but my, my higher level discernment and stewardship was telling me she wants more than that. and on the one hand I could be like, like she's a grown ass woman, trust her word in her agency and.

call me little old fashioned, but I think a man is called to like greater stewardship of a relationship and preserving the sanctity of romance. And so I eventually cut that off without having sex with her, which was a big deal for me. And then very quickly got into another relationship and was falling in love with that woman, but I was just like terrified of commitment. And so I essentially ghosted her and like broke her heart.

And then when I want, then I was like, okay, actually I think I'm ready. She was like, no bro, like I'm good, I've moved on. And like that was like, fuck, I blew it. So all of this context to say, I was being very public about my journey and all of this and very just open. And she simultaneously is having her own heroin journey and sharing that. And long story, not so short, I catch her on a Facebook live where she's describing a heartbreak she's going through.

and tears are streaming down her face, but she's so like cool, calm, collected, confident, eloquent, expressing what she's going through. And I was just mesmerized by it. Yeah, totally captivated. And so pretty much immediately I sent her a voice note that started with a little freestyle rap. Yep. Which is just like, yeah, this feels like what I want to do. And we...

traded some voice notes, some videos, and then it turned into a couple of FaceTime dates. then probably less than a month after that, I flew from San Diego to New Orleans where she's from and was living to meet her and told her I loved her that weekend. She reciprocated and it was just like, all right, we're doing this. And there were other experiences over the course of the next few months that stress tested us. Okay, like we're feeling this love. It's sincere, but is this like a meant to last a lifetime? And we went to Envision Festival, which

Jordan Bowditch (27:32.974)
traveling or going to a gnarly experience at a couple can really stress

relationship.

And so, yeah, I think there is something to Fool's Rush In energy.

But how do we tell?

Totally. And I think we were to some degree, I don't even want to say an anomaly, because I know plenty of incredible couples that have their own version of a similar story where it was just the sweet spot of a lot of God and synchronicity. And I'm meeting the moment with courage and commitment. And I think we were both just there together.

Kristin (28:08.942)
I love that you said courage and commitment. Yeah. It seems like a whirlwind of all the, I mean, yeah, it can be like our decision to make the choice to be committed. Yeah, sometimes I found myself in, you know, situations where like, think that I'm so excited about this one. And then it kind of fizzles out. But maybe it's we're at the same point, like to make that decision together. It sounds like y'all met it. And I'm curious, I kind of want, I have this question. I don't want to deviate too far.

before it even make sense. Well, you mentioned like a couple of things about like traditional wife or, and so I'm like, I'm curious about polarity and where that comes into play with like masculine and feminine energy dynamics. I'm also curious, like what you want women to know, like as a men's coach about women, I mean, about men, or if like you wish there was something that we could understand a little more. I feel like they're, like I love men.

And I do, but I feel like I could see where it'd be challenging to be a man today or like not know, like on the heels, guess, after me too, like, or do I open this door? Do I not? Do I like kind of navigating some like turbulent water per se? Like is she, is this going to be accepted? Is this going to be slammed in my face? Like all those things. So kind of just like, yeah.

There's so much there. was literally, so I drove here with my older brother and we were talking about this. we, yeah, we have awesome conversations. My best friend and we were talking about the Me Too movement and an overcorrection. It's, I don't want to be dramatic, but I will say it's uniquely tough to be a young man in the modern day. There's just a lot of mixed signals. There's this pervasive nice guy narrative.

that I think is frankly making bitch boy betas. It feels like a little weird to say and use that language, but it's just the best way I can describe it. And I think any man listening will resonate with that. funny enough, actually in my men's group that I run last night, I have a guest facilitator every month. Last night was the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy, which is such a great book. It's one of my favorites. It's one of my, what I call fab five.

Jordan Bowditch (30:24.0)
recommended reads for men. So Dr. Robert Glover, just an awesome guy. he's got range. He's one of those guys who can be very politically incorrect and he's just very confident. Yeah, doesn't give a shit. He's like, hated or loved, but this is who I am. This is what I believe. And any guy who reads that book, I'll say 90 plus percent of guys that read that book, it's like, holy shit. I feel seen, I feel called out and I feel excited. Like I feel like,

here for not politically correct.

Jordan Bowditch (30:52.492)
This is why I'm not experiencing the life that I want is fundamentally because I've adopted this nice guy mentality. It's the cultural conditioning and programming has told me that this is the way a man's supposed to be and it's just not true. and so.

I'm not care- I'm curious what some of those lies are.

Yes. it's being a nice guy is different from being a great man. nice guy is passive, is dishonest. And what I mean by dishonest, and this is a really important distinction, it's not about overtly not lying. We can all, like that's black and white. You either lie and you fucking lied or you tell the truth.

but the gray area is being forthright. But it's like, if I'm not being forthright, then I am effectively being dishonest. Nice guys don't adhere to that rule, if you will. They don't know that distinction, or they know it, but they don't follow it. And so that's being like little white lies or a little omission. That's telltale sign of a nice guy is that kind of, they're afraid to...

Exactly

Jordan Bowditch (32:04.424)
They're trying to keep the peace. It's this very defensive posture. It's very like trying to manage my reputation, trying to make sure others are okay. It's just, it's not who I actually am when I truly think and feel. It's not trustworthy. It's not high integrity. And I think that this overcorrection, Me Too Feminist Movement has made a feminine men that are acting more like women, but they're not women and they're not meant to be women. Women are women.

Powerfully and uniquely so. And men are the counterbalance to that. The polarity, masculine and feminine, yin and yang, all that kind of stuff. And I think there's just a reclamation and a revolution, a revival of men stepping back into that. It's good shit.

Yes. I'm like, put me in my feminine, baby. I mean, like, because I've encountered a really, you someone. And a couple months ago, I was like, oh. I was like, oh, you are in your own like. Come on. Yeah, like you're masculine, baby. was just like, oh, this is nice. I'm like, this is what I want. Yeah. I'm like, clarity. Yes.

Exactly!

Jordan Bowditch (33:10.38)
Yep, clarity, direction, decisiveness. And it's hard. It takes a lot of courage. It's truly vulnerable and a different kind of vulnerability as a man. it's willing to be unliked, misunderstood, to hurt feelings, to ruin things. It's a different game. And a lot of men have not had that game modeled to them, myself included.

My dad is a quintessential nice guy. And I love my dad. My dad is awesome. I've learned so many great things from him. He is just this incredible godly man. He's a Christian, he'd angelist. I was just talking to him earlier and he was at the hospital because he's chaplain there. And so he's with people on their deathbed praying for them. He's done prison ministry for decades. It's amazing. like, God bumps just, I'm so proud of him and so grateful to be his son. And he's a fucking pushover.

He's a people pleaser, nice guy, peacekeeper, not a peacemaker. I think that's a fun distinction. It's like... know, a fun analogy is if I break a bone, I can just leave it and then, like, hobble around and it heals, but it heals like shit. And I haven't limped the rest of my life and I'm... Yeah, I'm handicapped. Or in the moment, I can reset the bone. It fucking hurts and it's intense, but it'll heal better. And that's what a peacemaker does, is he makes peace, he creates it.

and a lot of men, again, just haven't had that modeled. and so fortunately there's a, a counter movement in culture with guys like Dr. Robert Glover and no more Mr. Nice guy and, David data and like a lot of these amazing teachers, John Wineland's like that are

that book that you suggested, the way the spirit. Yeah, I was like, I want to read this too. I haven't gotten to it yet.

Jordan Bowditch (34:57.354)
One of my FabFab recommendations. It's a good one. And so if I were to give a prescription for men, it's find men like that and start with listening to podcasts and reading books. It's great. And don't kid yourself that that's all it takes. That's just the starting place. Then from there, it's like, need to be in the presence of those kinds of men. You need to be in relationship with them where they get to know you and you get to know them and you meet in that masculinity. That has been.

priceless and just absolutely crucial for me.

Yeah, when did you discover that? when, how?

I discovered that I would say, well, it probably started in the most significant way with my fraternity in college. There's stereotypes around frats for a reason. There's plenty of shadowy shit and the ritual, brotherhood, rites of passage, initiation experiences, all of that was so valuable. And being an 18 year old, fresh out of high school,

transitioning into college and being a young man and taking care of myself and being responsible in a whole new way, that container helped me make that transition. And for most people, I think it was really good. And then I saw plenty of people, know, a percentage of people where it was like actually to their detriment. And you can trace that back to maybe how they're raised or whatever. So that was the first big inflection point. And then I would say probably the next big inflection point.

Jordan Bowditch (36:28.21)
I worked for a company called Bulletproof. Some people are probably familiar. yeah. Bulletproof Coffee. was one of the early startup employees with them. And so that's what got me into the world of biohacking and personal development. And so I was a national educator for them and going to a bunch of different events. was so, I'm so grateful for that season. And so I was going to like festivals, masterminds, health summits. And through that journey, I went to a retreat called International Tribe Design.

It was, that's what really, that was, if I were to pick one, that was it. I met who's now my best friend, JP Sears, imagine some people are familiar with a very popular comedian and he was at that retreat and just other incredible men. and the, core tenants of it were radical honesty. And that's a book, one of my other fab five recommended reads, radical honesty. And it was like, Holy shit. These people are just saying what they actually think and feel and believe.

And unapologetically so, and that created some awkwardness and some tension, but ultimately the connection was so, the depth was palpable, so much more than I'd ever experienced. And so I was in that container for a solid few years and was just growing personally. And then it started to become this clear professional calling. And I just continued to double down on being in the presence of those kinds of people.

spending a lot of money to do so. But it was so clear that this is the best investment I can make. Because it is the lead domino. If I can be confident in who I am and continue to cultivate just like ruthless integrity, which an integrity is such an interesting game because just like lying, there's a black and white of, okay, yeah, don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, like 10 commandments kind of shit. That's the clear black and white integrity.

but the integrity that is unclear is the internal stuff. It's just like, this isn't overtly right or wrong, but what is right for me and right for this moment? And that's just, that's a never ending game. And so being in the presence of other men in particular, but just people and certainly couples as I got into that sacred union of coupleship, it's just, there's layers and elevation of all of that.

Kristin (38:49.984)
It's so interesting. I'm curious. It kind of makes me think of, okay, there's the nice guy. There's the, what'd you, what, beta bitch? Yeah, yep. I love the alliteration. People say that. Masculine man. And I kind of want to touch on, I have here, Down the Good Enough Man. Yes. Because you mentioned it, like, I first gained...

Bye,

Kristin (39:16.93)
I guess insight into your work and like who you are whenever you were a guest, like mastermind leader and Leola's pleasure priestess group. And I was like, I love like, what is this? I'm like, give me more. But you mentioned a concept of like the good enough man. And I was like, tell me more. Cause I think that there's a little bit of like, am I holding out for this box to be checked this, this, this. So I'll just let you riff on that a little bit.

I love this topic right now. It's something I'm just encountering a lot.

Well, I'll start here. So I think it's important for both men and women to get very practical with deal makers and deal breakers. And so it's, okay, here's my red flag deal breakers. If there's this, if this is present, I've outsourced like the, I don't want to get hijacked by intense feelings. I just, she's gorgeous. I feel incredible in her presence. I'm so attracted to her.

but there's this red flag. But I can overlook that because there's so many of these other things. it's, writing that shit down and sharing it with people you care about to remind you I think is really important.

What are some examples of some like red flags or deal breakers? Maybe on both ends. Yeah. Because I was like pondering this the other day. I was like, I'm going to get real clear. I'm like, okay, I value this. And I'm like, what are my deal breakers or deal? Okay. All right. I'm like, available is definitely.

Jordan Bowditch (40:43.032)
there's some that are very clear and others that are not so clear. And so I'll do examples of both. A classic example is smoking. So it was for me, my mom smoked my whole life and I just, it was very clear to me, I don't want to be with someone who smokes, like smoke cigarettes specifically. And it's nothing overtly against people that smoke cigarettes, but what that represents to me and what I want out of relationship and out of a partner, that's not part of the equation.

Yeah.

Jordan Bowditch (41:13.591)
And something even taking that a step further, and I think this is very important in the context of this conversation.

If they want to quit smoking or they're trying to quit smoking, it's like, mm, but you're smoking. So if it's meant to be, I'll revisit this when you've quit smoking and you've not smoked for a long time. And these aren't hard and fast. It's like, okay, cause I'm committing to someone or going into relationship with the expectation that they're going to change. That's so important. So key. I'm not riding this idea of potential. Yeah.

Wind in your wings. Yeah, exactly.

Jordan Bowditch (41:50.54)
And it's okay to be excited about that and to want to change and grow and recognizing potential, but like, that's not what I'm putting my bets on. And so that's one example. Here's one that's on the flip side. When I was preparing for my partner, I recognized it was really important that she had women friends. And that was something that she had a community of women that...

I respected that she loved and that were just good women for her to be around. And because I didn't have that in a previous relationship and I was like, man, that's significant. However, that was my deal maker. And why I say that is because this is where I would almost, this would be the exception to the rule of my wife. When I met her, she did not have that. But I was tracking and this wasn't even something that I incepted her with or said, but I tracked that she sincerely

really wanted that, she was craving that. And she was taking action to make that happen. Like when we first moved to Austin, it was so cool, like still so proud of her in this regard. She was publicly like on her Instagram and Facebook saying, I wanna find women friends. I've struggled with this throughout my life and I really want this. So like, I'm open for girl dates. And so that was a deal maker is that she has that and if it's not there, then I'm just being mindful of like, hey, she doesn't have that deal maker, but how is she orienting to that?

And I think of it would be another good example. mean, red flag is ownership. these, you can almost do these on each side, but just frame it differently. And that's why think it's just a really good practice to sit with for a hot minute. She needs to be, I need to see her practice ownership of her personal experience and be willing to apologize, to forgive her relationship with her

family is something that was, this was a deal maker for me. wanted, I recognize, man, my significant other's family of origin, that, that's a factor. That's not just something random that has nothing to do with her. On the one hand, it was not a deal breaker. Like, hey, if she doesn't have a relationship with her family, I want that. But like, I can overlook that. To some degree that may not be in her control, right?

Jordan Bowditch (44:15.086)
But an example would be my wife's dad was not in her life. He left when she was two, she didn't have relationship with them. And so there's daddy issues, if you will. And those have been beautiful for our relationship and they've also been very challenging. And so I think it's, again, if we're looking at this through the lens of this is the most important decision I'll make in my life, then treating it as such. Not overthinking it though, and this is where I'll get to the good. I know, I don't wanna harp on this too much, but it is important.

Okay, yeah, cuz I'm a-

It is important.

And I think by the time you're around 30, you're probably pretty clear on this stuff, but write it down and take time to meditate on it and be with it so that you can see both sides of it as you're navigating relationship. Then from there, this is where the good enough comes into play. The grass is always greener. It's like, especially in this modern world, it's at your fingertips. There's just.

It's at our finger tip.

Jordan Bowditch (45:08.728)
There's always something better, someone better, a better city to live in, all these kinds of better, like all the things. man, I think that is such a detriment to society. And I had to navigate this with my wife. I knew this is my person and I believe that many people could be my person. I believe that many people could be your person. So at the end of the day, it's just a choice. And in the good old days, they weren't all good, but you know.

There are some lessons to be gleaned from previous cultures and times. Arranged marriages. Like I've heard studies that there's a happiness factor there that is significant. I'm not condoning that or like recommending that we do that, but there's something there that is worth acknowledging and sitting with. Where it's when you don't have a choice or you just make a choice because you've determined this is good enough. They're not perfect. Neither am I. Nothing's perfect, but I've lived enough life.

they have qualities that I like and they don't have any red flags that are just like deal breakers, like non-negotiables, then at some point I just have to make a decision and commit. And both parties have to do that in their own way. So it's, and it's not to be confused with settling, right? So it's desperation, obligation kind of energy. That's not where we're going with for here. It's.

Yeah.

Jordan Bowditch (46:31.47)
acknowledging I'm a flawed human, there's flawed humans out there, and I could spend my entire life searching for that perfect person, and I might get into my 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond and never do it. like I said earlier, every year after 30, especially for a man, it gets harder and harder to commit.

for these 50 plus.

Yeah. And again, that might be perfectly fine, right? And I've actually heard, know, there is, maybe there's a point where it shifts the other way. Yeah. 50 year old man, and maybe he's already had a life, right? Everybody's starting a new season of his life. So yeah, again, I don't wanna, just because these are my opinions.

No, I just think it's an interesting take, especially now. And then I'm curious, how do you, important do you think is like an aligned vision? Like either something, because I think it's, I'm sitting with, like, I would really like to co-create something with somebody in some capacity. Not just like the life that we design, but I don't know if that's like a book we write or some kind of shared mission or something like that. Can you speak to that a little bit? but I also see,

I had someone else reframe it in my mind. I'll just give this as an example too, where she was like, I'm kind of like the kite in the relationship where I go and like, he's like my stable base that I returned to. And he's like the behind the scenes support. like, I love that reframe too, because I had initially envisioned like, you know, doing something collaboratively, but I also liked the vision of being able to lean back and have that support too.

Jordan Bowditch (48:01.282)
Yeah, and this is where I think it can truly go either way. also within my relationship so far, we've done a lot of those things. We've collaborated early in our relationship and even halfway into our relationship and it was beautiful and it was also really fucking challenging. And it's not for the faint of heart and it seems really great and it can be really great and it can be really challenging. And now we're coming back to a season of collaboration after living a lot of intense life.

And it feels more integrated. feels we're more sovereign and autonomous so we can come together more whole. And, you know, the sum is greater than the whole of the parts. I always have to before I say it. There's an exponential quality there. So I think those things matter, but I don't, I wouldn't put those in the deal maker, deal breaker category for me. And so I think just sitting with that, like how important is that? Like what, what do I really need? Yeah, exactly. It's underneath that.

Yeah

Kristin (48:57.352)
I like what's underneath that.

Coming back to David Dada and Way of Superior Man, he has an argument that resonates with me where he basically says, will have one area of your life and your relationship together that's dialed in, that just is naturally works really well. It might be your sex life. It might be your sex life. You just have a chemistry and a compatibility there that is pretty easy. There's ups and downs and all arounds, but generally speaking, you're pretty good there. It might be that as like life partners.

as roommates, there's just like a category that'll be really, and so that might be like your anchor or that might be something that's just like, yeah, we got this. Everything else is gonna be work. And from there it's choose your own adventure. There's a buffet of options and spending a lifetime with someone, there's lots of possibilities there. There's lots of tinkering and experiments we can do.

Yeah, I like the idea. Someone called it like choosing wide versus choosing deep. He's like, there's beauty in all of it, but like the unfolding and experiences and how you grow and sharing that with an individual is like, think very touching. I'm gonna just take a little peek over here, see if like there's something else that I wanna touch on. Or yeah, you know, I kind of like to speak to faith. I feel like there's been...

a big transition from like the spiritual woo-woo-ness to more traditional Christianity faith. Is that something that you, has your relationship shifted with that over time? I know you said you grew up with your dad who has been like chaplain and in the prison ministry, which I have a soft spot in my heart for prison. So I think that's really admirable. Cause I find myself navigating some of that right now, like leaning on scripture.

Kristin (50:45.602)
I'm also a little bit of a mystic. So I'm like kind of finding my way through it. know? Aren't we all? Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I grew up in, you know, the Bible Belt. And I think I rebelled against some of that for a while. So like coming back a little more humbly in some way. I'm, I just wanted to give the space for that today too.

super present for me. Yeah. Yeah, we're going through our loss.

My wife in particular, she was just brought to her knees. Yeah. Literally. And when she was there, Jesus was what came to her. And we had started going to a church here in Austin, Red Rocks, which is such an awesome spot. I just love what they're doing there. And that was the one place where she felt, she just could be there and felt comfort, felt, just felt the presence of God.

And so that was like our only social experience and just being out in the world. so going, so we'd been going here and there before that. then we started going every week and if nothing else, regardless of what you believe.

good church, you just leave feeling good. And I think all too often, and I will put myself in this category, I can get caught up in the details. I'm like, wait, but like, what about that? There's a hole there. I don't know that I believe that. And it's like, okay, cool. Do you, I don't want to live life that way. Way to live life that feels sustainable and fun and energizing and all that. So instead of focusing on what I don't want or I'm unsure of what I don't believe, then let's orient to

Kristin (52:03.949)
Yeah.

Kristin (52:19.31)
It's not a lie.

Jordan Bowditch (52:31.692)
the feeling and presence of God in my body and my heart and my spirit and my being. And no question the presence of God is there. I can't speak to all churches and all, like, I feel it there. And I'm very fortunate that my, so my wife grew up Catholic and for a lot of, I don't have the personal experience there, but my understanding from a lot of people I know is that that's very rigid. There's not necessarily like a living experiential component that most people describe. And not to knock Catholicism, I think there's like a lot of beauty and

history and tradition there. For me, I grew up, my dad that I talked about, my grandparents on my mom's side were pastors of a charismatic church in Orange County called Powerhouse. like, you know, getting slain in the spirit, speaking in

was about to say, seeing your tongues. yeah.

I still know my grandma's, like her speaking in tugs language. Ho, la, da, ba, sol, la, da, ba. I can just like see her, know, rest in power grammar. And my papa was the preacher, the pastor of that church. And I lived with them for a couple of years in high school. I didn't have, yeah, there was the rigidity and there was some like resentment, some of those things, but it was not something where I felt, don't demonize my heritage. And I never was at a point, I had some rebellion for sure.

my own experience of orienting to that and coming back to that. And I'm very grateful for my spiritual heritage. All that to say, I would say I'm a Christian. I still feel a little, like claiming that feels kind of intense because I know there's a lot of baggage there for me personally and just in the cultural ethos and yeah, just the environment of that and what that can bring up in certain people. I get it. I can empathize with that. And yet,

Jordan Bowditch (54:18.968)
That container, Jesus, his life's example, all of that just speaks to me. It's like something I can't explain and I don't understand at all. And I can have fun with not understanding and I'll use some other labels to like create something that feels more aligned with me and my experience. Like I'll use mysticism like you referenced, agnosticism, agnosis, universalism. These are all kind of sects of Christianity and I've thrown them together in a way that feels like it makes more sense to me and just feels right, good and true to me.

And at the end of the day, I don't fucking know. And nobody

I know, we're all just giving our best shot, right? And like if someone says like, this is the way, I'm like, I'm a little suspicious. I love the reframe that you offered too of like, what's missing and like kind of having that like skeptical or cynic kind of mindset versus like, okay, well, what is this giving me? Or what kind of life is this giving me to have this faith or to rely upon it?

Yeah, I mean, even for now, before you got here, I was like sitting in the parking lot and I was like wrote out of my little prayer. Yeah, I know I just really liked shifting that because it used to incite a lot of judgment or like that fear or fire and brimstone kind of element. then I've had those moments where I'm like, yeah, it's just beautiful. And like coming back, coming back to Jesus and trying to let Jesus take the wheel. Although I told a friend of mine the other day, sometimes it's.

peeling my fingertips off of this steering wheel. It was to mean what I think I want and telling me how good it gets. Yes, there is. It's really cool to see and witness. I mean, like I've had friends from all over, all across the, like I had one of my Jewish girlfriends on here not too long ago. She's like, I'm real turned on by Jesus right now, Christoph. I was like, I never thought, was like, what? It's cool. And we've only got a couple minutes. So I'll let you like slide in if there's any offers or any way to connect with you that you wanna.

Jordan Bowditch (55:44.622)
That was a revive.

Kristin (56:09.122)
drop.

Yeah, I'm on Instagram. That's my main spot. Jordan Bowditch. I'm him, baby. I have a men's group called University of Man. And every last Tuesday of the month is an open call where just my guys can bring their friends. Anybody can join to get a little microdose taste of men's work. It's the last Tuesday. And then for my guys that are all in on it, it's a year long experience, membership and

Sly.

Kristin (56:30.798)
Well, he says last Tuesday. Every Can't put that in the notes.

Jordan Bowditch (56:41.11)
I do my man-meet retreats, which that's my favorite thing ever. And yeah, I use funny language. My friends call it Jordanese. You referenced it earlier in the conversation.

Because it's so important. Yes. it just... Man meets. What does a man meet? Yeah. Exactly.

We get fun comfortable. We explore what it looks and feels like to be in fun conditional connection. And yeah, it's the oscillation of brain and body, heart and mind. And like one of the days we do Brolympics. So men competing in like the iron sharpens iron energy and playing and also like, hey, I'm trying to fucking win here kind of thing. And like the first place loser gets spanked by the winner.

Some of my frat stuff is in there as well. So I call them a fun way that like to describe it is my men's group is an adult. Exactly. My men's group is a fraternity for adults and my man meet retreats are conscious bachelor party. And I found that for me, if the work isn't fun,

Contraski?

Kristin (57:42.232)
Yeah.

Jordan Bowditch (57:48.59)
it's not sustainable. And I think it can and must be fun. And so that's like my vibe and my man-meat retreat, I them twice a year, one in the spring, one in the fall, and the one in the fall is coming up here November 6th tonight.

If they join now, could they go to that or how does it Okay, okay, was curious. He's another person. Okay, I was curious. And I think that playfulness helps things stick a little Yes, it does. I don't know. I've seen, I've just seen a video too or like a post about, know, if you recite something or practice something, you know, it just can be kind of, you know, not a stick as well as like if you say it with play, then it's more effective or lands easier, you'll recall it easier. So, feel that.

There's like two and half spots left in there.

Kristin (58:29.342)
And isn't there something about entering the kingdom and being playful or something like that? think that's important.

You don't have the spirit of a child. Yes! They're the ones that inherit the kingdom of God.

Thank you for helping my brain fog! It's been a-

I think I butchered it too, so it's something like that.

I'll to anyone else that listens. All right, thank you. Thank you.

Jordan Bowditch (58:49.794)
Thank you for having me. This was super fun.