Tantric Daddy Take Two: Dennis Hull on Control, Surrender, & Letting Go Artwork

Sex, Drugs, & Soul

Welcome to Sex, Drugs, & Soul, where the sacred gets spicy, the growth gets real, and the self-discovery comes with a side of mischief. I’m Kristin Birdwell, author, host, & playful professional line-blurrer between the profane and the profound.

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Sex, Drugs, & Soul

Tantric Daddy Take Two: Dennis Hull on Control, Surrender, & Letting Go

September 22, 2025 • Kristin Birdwell • Season 4 • Episode 4

Tantric Daddy Take 2! Dennis Hull returns for an unfiltered conversation on conscious masculinity, emotional availability, and the power of slowing down.

We talk about...

The emotional toll of hyper-independence
Finding a rhythm between doing and being
The shadow side of polarity & performance
Rest as an act of rebellion in hustle culture
Holding space without trying to fix or rescue
Discomfort as a path to deeper pleasure
The attraction to the unavailable
Dennis’s transition into stewarding the Naked Soul Society, how he navigates leadership, & what it means to offer presence as a form of protection.

This episode is a permission slip to take your hands off the wheel, honor your emotions, and trust your own inner timing. It's also an honest glimpse into the kind of masculinity that doesn’t dominate but protects, witnesses, and honors.

Timestamps:
00:00 – Tantric Daddy returns & existential crisis is present
04:50 – Rest as rebellion & releasing urgency
08:00 – The art of thinking as doing & how creativity brews in silence
13:00 – Tantra as energy, not just touch: what true co-creation looks like
17:00 – Holding space vs. fixing: the masculine lesson Dennis had to unlearn
20:30 – Women as storms, thorns, and sacred experiences
24:00 – Control, hyper-independence, & unconscious manipulation
27:00 – The “idle boat” metaphor for letting life guide you
30:00 – Steak, stillness, & knowing when to flip it
32:00 – What’s turning Dennis on in life
36:00 – Stewarding the Naked Soul Society & honoring Leola’s vision
40:00 – Shadows, saboteurs, & the real work of integration
43:30 – Discomfort as a doorway to pleasure
46:00 – Hope, faith, intention, & spiritual cynicism
49:00 – ChatGPT as a tool vs. a crutch
52:00 – Hyper-independence & the quiet desire to be held
55:00 – Why we’re drawn to the unavailable (ouch)
57:00 – Polarity, men’s work, & the difference between dance and game
60:00 – Daddy wounds, dating patterns, & rewriting the script
63:00 – Grace, epiphanies, & healing after the death of a loved one

Connect with Dennis
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itsdennishull/
Website: https://www.dennishull.com/
Naked Soul Society: https://dennishull.com/naked-soul-society

Connect with Kristin:
Website
Instagram
YouTube

Kristin (00:00.48)
Let's rock and roll. Welcome back to another episode of Sex, Drugs, and Soul. Today's episode, Tantric Daddy, take two with death soul. Brought to you by Existential Crisis.

There's been a lot of that.

Yeah, no, so you're asking like how I felt before we came on and I haven't answered you yet. I'm because I'm like I'm feeling all of the things. know, like I was driving here and I was like, oh, wow, that's really pretty. Like just the trees, how they meet the water with like grief of my grandmother with what feels like sometimes conflicting desires. Notably sometimes the ones where I'm like,

Yes, I do wanna have impact and be visible and inspire people. And then there's a part of me that also wants to move to the fucking woods and hermit up and just like say, fuck it all. So I'm curious, mean like those, yeah, I'm like, how do they both coexist? And maybe it's like creating space for one another or those spaciousness times, but.

How are you feeling? Are you feeling any those conflicting? How do you navigate those desires or something?

Dennis Hull (01:20.206)
a little bit of that myself. I've made some big bold moves in my personal life and in my business in the last, I don't know, month or six weeks. I feel like there's, I want say that differently. I really think it's common when you take on something new or when you step into a new space or you level up.

that you feel the weight and the responsibility of that change before you feel the benefit of it, even though you know it's right. I mean, I don't know that's how it is, I'm saying you, but that's how it felt for me. That's how it felt for me is like making big bull moves, doing these things, you know, and I'm kicking ass and taking names and it feels great. And it comes with a lot of new responsibility. Some of it that I was prepared for and some of it I'm like, what the hell is this? And there's a retraction with that of just like, I just have to take on the responsibility first.

But I think that's, I mean, that's just common and being able to regulate my nervous system through that is part of the deal, you know? Some of that means just like you're just feeling being like raging against it, like, fuck this, I don't want to deal with this shit today.

Yeah, today I really wanted to stay in bed and get out. And I told you, I was like, I don't know if I want to cry or punch something or both at the same time. And maybe that it kind of like, as you were talking about, the pushback or responsibility, it made me think of resistance from the artist's way. I know the artist's way. The war, is it the war of art by Steven Press? Yeah, where he talks about how the more resistance you feel, like the more

It is a war of art.

Kristin (03:00.238)
significant it is for your life journey or to your transformation.

Yeah. Yeah, the closer you get to the top, the harder it is. Right? The air gets thinner, the incline gets deeper, and you just keep going. mean, that's the... At every level, at every step, you know, it's another test of resolve. And it's okay to, like, stop and take a rest for the night sometimes. Because then, do you have other times where you feel like you wake up in the morning and you're like, this day is mine. I get the world by the ass. You know, and then...

The next two days later, you're like, what was I thinking?

Oh, to be human. Oh, yeah. What day was that? I mean, I feel like it was recent. Yeah. Well, I was just like, bing. Yeah. And then others were like, no.

I want to rot

Dennis Hull (03:51.97)
human experience, right? And sitting in those, this is on my mind a lot too, is being able to sit in these apparent paradoxes. And I say apparent because there's so many things that seem like they're contradictory. And then you get through it to a certain point, like they're really not. Usually for me, that contradiction is how I'm feeling and what I'm thinking don't seem to quite gel. And for me,

Like my heart has to catch up with my head. think for other people, maybe it's the other way.

Yeah, how do you navigate that or get those two in alignment?

I write a lot. Yeah. You know, I mean, think you probably can relate to that. And that's something like when I fall off my journaling practice, I get stressed. But it's those kind of grounding practices, journaling, writing, often just like a good conversation. it just brings the light, like it turns the light on. I see what's happening here. But sometimes the way that I navigate it is I just don't.

I'm just like, okay, well this hurts, this is painful, this is annoying, and I still have things I gotta get done. Or sometimes this hurts and it's painful and I got things I gotta get done and I'm not gonna fucking do them. I'm gonna sit right here and I'm gonna have an extra cup of coffee and I'm gonna eat this piece of cake that my gut doesn't need and fuck it. You know, it's, yeah, I sometimes I just...

Kristin (05:18.872)
Yeah.

Dennis Hull (05:24.94)
I just go with however I'm feeling and sometimes I power through and do what I think is right.

Like who's winning the, is it a battle? Is it a seesaw? Yeah.

There's, there's, I just quit trying to think that there's a pattern or a right way to do it. I don't have to fit my life into eight to five Monday through Friday. I don't have to fit it into anybody else's spiritual practice or box, anything like that. Just like you this morning, I woke up this morning, my alarm went off at five 30. I hit the alarm and I laid there like, okay, I want to get up and work out. And my, I was just like, no, I'm not, I'm not going to get up and work out. I've learned rolled over and went back to sleep today.

And I slept an extra couple of hours and I have the slightest bit of regret about it. And then I got out of bed, like I made my bed, I didn't went through my normal morning routine and we texted a little bit. And then other days I wake up and say, I'm just, I'm gonna get up and make it happen.

Yeah, like yesterday I like bebopped right out of bed, 630, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna make this 730 AM workout class. Usually don't do that one. Way much more peaceful drive though than the 830 one going, you know, like traffic wise and just like love starting my day out like that. It was just like in a good rhythm and then yeah, yeah. I think if there's something too that like the holding space for nuance within ourselves and others too, can, what kind of grace can we extend to ourselves that can that.

Kristin (06:47.188)
outwardly reflect like the grace that we're extending to others. that you know, know I'll circle back to grace that sometimes I'm just like in a

Sometimes just sit in the uncertainty. don't really know what to do next. But I know part of that for me is that I'm still, for all of my work and all of my effort and all of my growth in my own journey and trajectory, sometimes I still get addicted to feeling like I always have to do something. Yeah. And some days I don't want to do, I just want to be.

So yeah, a friend of mine the other day, like when was it? Sunday, he's like, maybe you just need to accept the hustler part of you. because he's like, have you always been like a go-getter? Like da-da-da-da-da. I was like, yeah, I mean, I grew up like knocking on doors, selling shit, you know, I always gonna like, I guess there's always been a certain element of drive. Yeah, but there's also the, that lives with the desire to just be and be horizontal.

and be hailed and not do anything and rest and have, know, spaciousness for rest as my rebellion. Because I feel like we're so conditioned to do, do. And it's given priority.

thinking is doing something. Sometimes you just need to sit and think. I remember seeing something, it was an article, I'm not going to remember where it was or able to cite anything, but it was an observation that if you walk through any office building in the United States or in the West, you would see whatever, at any level, somebody tapping away, tapping away, or having a meeting, or building something, or doing something.

Dennis Hull (08:34.198)
In the East, like in Japan, it would be common to walk through an office building and see the boss reading a magazine, reading or writing in longhand. I don't know if that's entirely true with the sentiment being that we really don't, I think, credit to thoughts and reflection and creativity actually being something that we do. is thinking is a verb. We're doing something.

It might, from the outside, doesn't look like it necessarily, but like, I know I do that where like there are days and days and days and several days in a row, I take in a lot of input and information. I'll have one day where I'm kind of doing nothing physically, but things are still happening. And then the next morning I'll just write and write and write and write and all this stuff comes out like, oh, and then, and it's just, that's, that's the spark of, of movement. So, you know, the creative process and thinking and reflecting and

imagining that's still doing something. It's just not doing it in the way of like being productive that we are programmed to think we have to be. I don't want to do that all the time. I certainly don't want to do it because somebody else is giving me a task list.

Yeah.

Kristin (09:47.724)
Yeah. Well, it sounds like creating the space for that to transpire. Yeah. Spaciousness to have the ideas for the creativity versus just consuming all the time or doing something. I guess, it is a different level of the verb doing something. Yeah.

I mean you've held space for me. Well, what if you just it's okay for you to hold space for yourself? It should be okay. Yeah, you know and then not judge yourself for that or...

For me, there's like, I guess just like the, and I've been like, okay, how do I release this sense of urgency?

Yes. Yeah.

from either the expectation that I'm placing on myself for a vision that I am upholding and the one that I feel like we're bombarded with from society.

Dennis Hull (10:40.834)
I'm, yeah, that is hard to release. Like what is the answer to that? And I think it's just to continue to practice it, you know, and, and, and catch yourself. And that's, as I was driving here today, I'm driving up from San Antonio, it's like an hour and a half and I had plenty of time to reflect on my own, just kind of internal, I've been very tense and tight, just like, and realizing no one, absolutely no one is putting any deadlines on me except me. I am arbitrarily creating.

Yeah.

Dennis Hull (11:10.114)
these deadlines and therefore these points of stress in my life and I don't need to do it. And then like here's the really crappy part is the next level of that realizing how much of it is stuff I don't need to be doing at all, let alone having a deadline to do. Or here's the worst one. The worst one is I have an assistant and she can be saying, I need a couple of things from you and me feeling like, I gotta get this to her. Like, wait a minute, I'm the fucking boss here, right?

Yeah.

Kristin (11:21.666)
Yeah

Yeah.

Dennis Hull (11:36.332)
I'll get it to you when I get it to you. I mean, I appreciate being held accountable. That is important, but you know, just like I'm doing this to myself. Like you got work, everything is fine. I don't need to stress myself out about this.

Yeah, I love a good drive too. It's a good head clearing. I feel like a drive can be a meditation too. With or without music, I find that it's more meditative for me if I just turn the music down and I'm paying attention to my surroundings and I'm in my thoughts or mulling things over. Although sometimes I'm like, don't do this at home. But I do find I'll get inspired hits of poetry or insights and I'll be trying to cruise control and put something into my notes.

yeah.

Dennis Hull (12:19.938)
You know, I do Tantric massage work for women and my tipple space is closer to San Antonio. And I've worried a lot. I used to worry a lot about the drive if someone was coming from Austin. But the more I've done it, the more I've found that the drive is actually appreciated, particularly the drive home after. It's like a really good time to, you can't get sucked into the minutia of life right away. It's an hour and a half to just start integrating what has come up for you.

I did.

And so I found that it's like I provide recordings and things to listen to on the way home, poems or reflections. I want to do that. I will get, but it really like the silence of the drive home I'm told is actually valuable. The drive in, I get mixed results because some people are coming in really nervous and it's just extra time to be in their head. And others are like,

They're great.

Kristin (13:08.046)
Feeling nervous.

Kristin (13:13.006)
I think it speaks to that amount of care though that you put into something whenever you voice memo something or send a poem or a little, you know, something you wrote for the drive-in and for the drive home. It's like, it's not just like the time that you're actually in your physical presence. It's like you're held before and after. Thank you for that. beautiful. Yeah. I felt that way.

I'm glad you felt that way. I do it. I want you to feel that. I do it too because it lights me up to do it. I enjoy it. I enjoy using my voice and the skills and talents I've learned in voice work and acting for these things. But the thing that I love the most is not even the recording, it's finding the right pieces, the right poems, and the co-creation of finding something that either because I found something that fits you,

or because we found something together that you really like. I mean, it's that process. And that's what really starts my work is the co-creation of the space. All of it is co-created all the way through and then that, you know, using the drive in and the drive back as part of that co-creation, that's what really, that's what I love about it. You know, it's not a, I mean, it's nice to be able to show off, but it's not to show off. That's not the reason to do it.

Do you find in your sessions that you receive just as much as you're giving in some times, in some ways, in a different capacity? I do. just had one on Saturday that felt very nourishing too.

that were you were giving? some, I mean, they're all nourishing, every single one of them. Some of them, you sometimes I'm really depleted and sometimes I'm energized. And really, I saw a quote actually just today that said, you think of Tantra as physical, you are already lost. Tantra is energy, right? And so it's the energy of the session and what kind of energy came up? Is it energy that we were able to move together or we were able to ground together or is it energy that...

Dennis Hull (15:11.918)
I've picked up and that I'm now holding onto. And if I'm holding onto it, then even if it's good, it can be draining. But the question was, do I get satisfaction? Of course. mean, the satisfaction of being able to, being chosen, I guess, to hold that space and have that trust and that opportunity to participate in something so meaningful.

That's what it's about. mean, that's what I get out of it. You know, there's a little dopamine hit. time you touch someone or you're sharing touch, I think that's nice too. But yeah, what I really take away from it is the co-created sharing of the space and again, just the level of vulnerability and trust. Like for example, you were willing to share with me. There's so much currency in that as a man.

in the world that we live in and the way that men are sometimes mistakenly perceived and sometimes dead on right. But for whatever reason, without getting into all of those details, it can be very challenging for a woman to trust a man and be in the presence of a man one-on-one, and particularly in that kind of situation. So to be chosen and trusted and...

feel respected in that way is really, that is nourishing. That's me feeling seen. That's me feeling seen. I feel seen for seeing you. And it's a beautiful feeling.

Well, you you said multiple times to me that it's like all of you is welcome and I love that. And I'm curious, like, people tuning in or men, like holding space, how do you hold space for a woman's emotions without like the urge to fix or provide solution or, you know what I mean?

Dennis Hull (17:11.194)
This is hard. mean, when I started my journey, like, the very first shadow that I had to confront was the rescuer. Right? The flip side of the protector. Protection is great. Rescuing, not so much. Right? And that still comes up, because that's what that is. I gotta fix this. I gotta make this better. gotta, you know... And... I think it's fair to say that it's a little easier for me because I'm just kind of still anyway. You know, I'm not a...

Even when my energy is high, it's not much different than this right here. This is just how I am and how I've always been for the most part. So somehow for what reasons I can't explain, I'm able to take a lot in and just kind of hold onto it and not, and then I have my own, guess I'm learning that I have my own way of alchemizing and giving back that energy or grounding it or just getting rid of it.

Really also just growing up with women, know, I was raised by, it was a mom and a sister and a grandmother. Women have had a huge influence on my life and just being around them. and I would never say something so arrogant as understanding how they think because I don't even think you know how you think. Do you? None of us know how we think men don't either frankly, but,

just realizing that.

the way that women feel the world is different than I do. And it's a beautiful thing. beautiful things often have, know, roses have thorns. And if you're gonna be close to beauty, if you're gonna be close to the sun, you're gonna get burnt sometimes. And just being able to have gratitude for that too. Right?

Dennis Hull (19:09.912)
There's a beauty in your storm. And it's, proud to be able to be a part of it and to be invited to be a part of it because you know I can be. So it's hard for me to answer the question of how. It's just developing an appreciation for every part of you. Whatever comes forward, if it's real, it's beautiful. And I'm here for it. I don't know, I love it all.

I can't say there's like a desirable behavior that I would want from you. To me that starts to get into control. I don't want to control, right? I don't want to control you. I want to experience you. I think women are meant to be experienced, not understood.

Ooh, I love that. Women are meant to be experienced, not understood. Guess I need to quit trying to understand myself.

Maybe sometimes that is. It's really been interesting to me to have 25 years in corporate where my job was to predict and think about the future. And always have a plan. Project management always have a plan. And I'm you know, I'm not an astrology guy, but I mean, know I'm a I think I'm a Virgo Virgo.

Sometimes.

Kristin (20:30.03)
I think y'all like to play and organize and orderliness.

Whatever planning and organization, anal and analyze, whatever. And I do like to have a plan, but I don't like to have rigidity in the plan. what I'm getting at is I've learned a lot about just sitting in the maybe, sitting in the uncertainty, but being ready. Being, think in martial arts they talk about this, for being relaxed, but ready.

Right? Relaxed and ready to react, ready to move, ready to respond. And I'm really just trying to move my life in that direction more and more all the time. It's just, I'm ready. I'm relaxed. I'm ready. I know I've got my own back. Whatever happens, I'll handle it. So learning to sit in that uncertainty, learning to sit in the maybe, learning to sit with the like, I don't know what I'm feeling or I'm feeling so much. can't sort it out. And just being okay with that.

Yeah, that's true. That's element of self-trust.

Dennis Hull (21:32.898)
be okay with it. don't have to get it right. Which is good because mostly I don't.

Yeah.

Kristin (21:39.086)
I was telling someone too, yeah, that there's been a lot of like, what I would say was turbulence or peaks and valleys or, you know, not to say like one emotion is better than the other, but I really like to feel joy, sadness and grief. I'm like, yes, it indicates how much I love. And, you know, again, I'm like, ugh. But I will say that within the last few months, there's a underlying sense of

self-trust or peace. And a friend of mine said the other day, and I just loved it and I wanna reiterate it. They're like, well, if it's part of you, it's always with you. I was like, oh, there's just, can just breathe within that. And I was having a call before we came here today and she said something interesting. Yeah, it's like kind of the paradox of like looking for the meaning in something or the reason why, and then not having to have one.

Like just following a curiosity because you're following a curiosity, not because it's gonna hold this pivotal, know, placemaker or piece in your life, or maybe you don't know yet. And maybe it's through the process of that you get to discover that. And so, yeah.

that resonate. you know, I spent a lot of years, this is this pressure of like, gotta find my purpose, gotta find my purpose. And it's interesting, I feel like I very much have now, but that's only happened in the last three years. And so for so many years, it was this pressure and almost guilt of not knowing what my purpose was. But what I learned in that is to follow my curiosity. So you don't have to have

Just follow your curiosity, follow what draws your attention. And I'm like, I admire the people who do follow, like they know and they're on it. That's so cool. That just wasn't me. And many people that I work with, they're like, I don't know my purpose. Well, follow your curiosity. Your purpose will reveal itself. All right.

Kristin (23:35.17)
Yeah, curiosity is so key, I think. And like giving yourself permission to evolve and change. Cause I know like I've been in like this experimental like period of my life where now I'm like, okay, do I want something that's more like this over here? Versus, so I'm like wrangling or wrestling or yeah, I just, can allow myself to change and I don't have to fit in anybody else's box.

or the ones that I'm trying to fit myself in, like labels or identity, things like that.

trying to be on somebody else's schedule, somebody else's, you know, emotion wheel, you know, and, and, you know, if we're honest with ourselves, if I'm honest with myself, how many times do I do things or take action where they're like at root? What I'm really trying to do is somehow control other, someone else's emotions or their perception of me. None of which is up to me. None of which is in my control. And I'm not doing it on purpose, right?

That's the unconscious stuff we want to make conscious. So we call it fate. Carl Jung, that's Carl Jung, That where we are taking actions to kind of manipulate the situation and not even really knowing it. there's, I'm really learning about myself is how fucking arrogant I can be about my ability to influence my surroundings.

Now, this is interesting to me because I do believe that we do can influence, right? Through perspective, actions, all those things. And, but we don't have control over the opinions or perspectives of others or, I mean, they may, you know, influence or inspire one another, but.

Dennis Hull (25:25.728)
Influence and inspiration, yes. Manipulation and control, no. Yeah. Right. Again, there's kind of a continuum there and it's so easy to slip into, if I just do more, these things will happen. Sometimes that's not at all the situation.

Or it's like, what am I trying to get to on the other side of that? Like what feeling? If I do all those things, how do I think that's going to make me feel? Like, will I feel more worthy? Will I feel more whole? Will I feel like, you know, that sort of thing? Is that what it...

Yeah, how many Finnish lines have you crossed in your life? Yeah. Maybe hundreds of thousands. And are you satisfied? Fuck no. So there's a new Finnish line, right?

And thousands

Kristin (26:14.102)
I'm like, I need to celebrate those finish lines.

Yeah, take a moment. Take your day and just be like, I don't want to deal with anything. I'm going to celebrate this win or this epiphany or this whatever it is.

You know, I think that part of my sense of urgency also comes from the times that we're in. And it just feels like everything's fucking chaotic in some ways. And so I'm like, how do I hold my peace within the storm and make positive influence or change within myself or within my surroundings or what I'm creating or putting out in the world to have these ripple effects to like maybe, you know, change or evolve something in like a more positive manner.

When I was a kid, I was 14 years old maybe, and I grew up with men who fished. I was a fisherman. Like I went to classes on learning how fish behave and like to be a great fisherman. I don't fish anymore. Not because I'm avoided necessarily, I just don't. my dad bought a skier bass boat and outboard motored and that's what we fished on. And I was learning to

to drive that boat. My grandfather was actually the one teaching me to drive it. In an outdoor, know, an outboard motor in this boat, you know, it goes this way, but it'll start to drift off a little bit and then it'll kind of drift back the other way. I didn't know that. So every time it would drift, I was turning the wheel. It would drift this way, turn the wheel, turn the wheel. I always like touching the wheel. And my grandfather, this is what he said. He said, the boat will be fine at idle.

Dennis Hull (27:57.08)
you're over controlling it. Take your hands off the wheel. He made me sit on my hands and just watch. And yeah, sure enough, it kind of went this way and then it kind of just went back the other way. But the general direction was straight in the direction you wanted to go. At idle, it doesn't matter what speed you're going. But it was, I think about that all the time, 40 years later, where I like, how often do I find myself over controlling the boat? And that's a little bit, think, what you're describing. Like sometimes the...

You know, we know this, like sometimes the thing to do is go with the flow. Sometimes the thing to do is paddle against the current with all your might. How do we know? We just have to check in with our intuition and the value and importance of what we're doing. But my default position now at this point in my life is go with the flow a hell of a lot more often. Just.

Yeah.

Yeah, go with it. Just let yourself go. Know that you're a leaf on the stream and you'll generally be moving forward. Sometimes you'll get caught in a little eddy and spin in one place and then you'll break out of that and you'll go.

I'm just... I'm tickling it. do... Yeah?

Dennis Hull (29:02.254)
You can't do nothing, right? But you can't over control the boat.

Yeah. Now I was giggling because I feel like I'm in this Jesus take the wheel setting or session or time period of my life where I'm like, show me how good it gets. You know, thank you. Thank you. And then sometimes it's like my fingertips have to be pried from the steering wheel. And maybe today is more of like one of these numbers.

Yeah

Dennis Hull (29:33.614)
Well, yeah, when you're pride from the steering wheel, is it you controlling it or are you holding on for dear life or both or what is that? These are all interesting analogies and I think just, yeah, this is what we're learning as we get like, when is it time to let things happen and when is it time to make things happen?

Yeah, am I in the period of life where like the acting or the harvest, know, am I like harvesting now or am I still like, what is it, planting the seeds? I've been listening to a lot of Neville Goddard lately and he just talks about where how if you plant these seeds and do these things, you wouldn't be like digging up the seeds. There's an element of trust like and for it to sprout and know that, okay, if I planted sunflower seeds right there, fucking sunflower is gonna, is gonna.

That's right.

But if I want a rose, then I might need to do some recalibrating,

Like, you know, I don't know how many listeners eat red meat. I'm a meat eater for sure. I'm meat girl. So when you cook a steak, most of what goes into cooking a steak well is doing nothing at all. Right? Get the heat right, put the meat on, leave it.

Kristin (30:46.638)
For me, it's butter, salt and pepper.

A little garlic, salt and pepper. That's what I like. And then to cook it, you you care how much time you have agency, get the temperature right. It needs to be on this side for this long. So you have to do something, but you don't overdo it. You don't constantly flip it and touch it and mess with it and open the grill cover and change the temperature. Put it on, leave it alone.

Yeah, and how do you like your steak cooked?

I'm definitely a medium rare. there's gonna be a, if they're gonna get it wrong, it needs to be rarer, not more, like not well done. Do not give me a.

Same, same. I'm hungry.

Kristin (31:22.862)
It's kind like my analogy with drugs. Is that right? Well, I mean, you can always take more. can't take less. Exactly. You can always cook it a little.

If you bring me a stick with no pink in it, you're getting it back. That shows me you don't know what you're doing.

And you know, don't really partake too, too much anymore, but occasionally, you know, I'll do like a little medicine. I don't know how I got onto this subject. Just following the butterflies of our conversation.

Right.

Dennis Hull (31:50.518)
I love that. Go where the mood takes you.

Yeah. Okay, well, I'm going to see if what my notes. you know, I've been meaning to ask the people that come on, which like yourself, sometimes I remember and sometimes I forget. So I've been meaning to ask everyone because I want to make it kind of like a signature question. What's turning you on in life right now?

Oh, boy. You mean besides you. What's turning me on in life right now? There's a lot swirling around my business and how I am engaging with other people that are kind of in a nascent stage of their business. And we're all just kind of bringing our gifts to the table and sharing, it's really beautiful. that's kind of turning me on and lighting me up. Like just seeing people. This is a scary time to be.

really? Me?

Dennis Hull (32:46.466)
well, to be a lot of things, but to be an entrepreneur, it's scary. It's always scary, but certainly, and so all these kind of solopreneurs out here and how we're finding each other and saying, hey, we can support each other a little bit. And working with people that respect my boundaries and know how to set their own, the difference between like, yeah, we can share some ideas and now you're crossing a line into my professional, like now you want my coaching or you want my support. And it's just, it's really,

to be with people who are leaning into that, their gifts, accepting their courage, having the courage to accept what they have to offer, and overcoming some of the saboteurs of what they're doing. that might seem like a trite answer, but that really is kind of lighting me up, is just the beauty of seeing people say, way I'm gonna respond to the state of things in the world right now is to own my shit and do what I can to make things better.

Yeah, my ca-

And try to make at least a little bit of a living out of it. know, that the coin of the realm is the coin of the realm. There's something really cool about that. And then we're all finding each other and finding ways to support each other and feeling a sense of community in that. Yeah. And so, I mean, maybe at bottom, community is lighting me up because you know, I'm now leading a community. Cool. Or stewarding a community. Leading is not maybe the word, but stewarding the community that I took over from Leola.

So dope. I don't know much more beyond that, so let's unpack it.

Dennis Hull (34:16.87)
you'd like to know? Yeah. So Leola, maybe back in June, had decided that she was ready to step away from the Naked Soul Society, which is this community that she created over the last four years or something, 350, 400 members or something like that, most of them local to the Austin area. But a really intentionally well-put-together community.

Um, and she wanted to step away. And the day she said she's kind of done with this, like, was overwhelmed with the knowledge that I had to step up and say, this can't go away. Like, this is such a well curated community and, and the Lille built so intentionally and it's just such a legacy. And plus, I mean, you know, like I'm, I love her so much. Like without her, like we don't even know each And so it was just this overwhelming feeling. And so I sent her a text and I sent her a voice note and I said, how would you feel about.

What can we do to put something together here? Like there's value here. What can we do? And we just started talking about it and over the course of half of June and July, we put together a deal on August 1st. officially, she had her last play party and I took over the community and transitioned things into my platform. But I'm just keeping it going. I haven't really changed anything.

I just really want to honor the legacy. want to continue to cultivate this intentional community that she built. I think she has traditionally done like six play parties a year. I intend to do a few more than that. And then I'm going to reach out to the community later this year and just pull and say like, what do you want to do? What more would you like to see from this community? How can we co-create something here that is more meaningful? The play parties are great, but 30, 35 people, that's all you get.

Well, that's 10 % of the community. You could we do other events that are more inclusive with more people? Can we offer opportunities for people to share their knowledge with each other? like, you know, I think maybe, there's something ongoing.

Kristin (36:11.79)
I think yes.

Kristin (36:19.672)
Sounds like a mini festival or something. Or like some like bigger meetup or.

I feel like the only answer to the ills that we're all experiencing in this world is community. We have one and it's beautiful. It's a community of conscious people, respectful people, loving people, and people of integrity. It really felt important to me to not have that go away. Leola took this over and when she said that she was

Again, this feeling of trust and support. Like she was immediately like, yeah, I do want that you are the person that she's been so supportive and so supportive isn't even the right word. mean, there's been no doubt in my mind. It's like, yes, you're the person that if anybody's going to do this, I want it to be you. And so I feel, but that's also one of those things where the responsibility, the feeling of the responsibility came first. And then the, because it's Leola.

No, mean, in a way, like, I can never step into her shoes or her persona. It's, you know, it's got to be something, it's going to have some fingerprint, but that's what I the community to do it. But it's scary to think of me taking on something that she made a success. Because it's, you she's again, I, it's weird for me to not have the words, but I don't because she's just

remix it a little bit.

Kristin (37:41.294)
It's cool though.

Dennis Hull (37:52.622)
I don't know, she's something special. mean, you are too, and like so many people in the community are. I feel like I'm, I got some, I'm not gonna pretend I'm not special in my ways too. You are. But yeah, it was a big deal to feel like, you know, that's the first party I'm hosting is October 11th, and I'm really looking forward to it, and I'm nervous about it. Yeah. Being in the league. All go together and.

all those things can coexist. That's turbulence. Yeah, you mentioned like saboteur or like the self-saboteur. How do you kind of combat some of those like fears or nervousness or just like welcome it? mean like, as it gets closer to that date, right? It's less than a month out, right?

I just, I kind of hug him out. You know, I've had plenty of opportunity to get in touch with my shadows and demons. And a friend of mine made a comment last week. She just said, I, how is it that you have compassion and love for these parts of yourself? Like, I hate these parts of myself. Well, like that is the key to me. You know, you hear things like ego death. There is no part of my being that I hate so much. want it to die.

Right? The point is to integrate those parts of yourself. Realize that the nervousness and the, it's all protections and it's all very normal. And some of it is highly amplified by pain and wounding from a time when we didn't have coping mechanisms. So just take that little child, that little part of yourself that's feeling that way and embrace her, embrace him. Thank you for protecting me. I hear you. I'm listening. Right? I'm not throwing you away. And

We're fucking doing this. line up because we're doing it. If I'm wrong, you can beat me up later. You always have. But that's not how it's going to be. Like we're going to move forward. We're not going to turn away from beautiful things and opportunities because they have thorns. We're not going to do that. We are going to lean into the beauty and you know, if we get

Dennis Hull (40:01.506)
burnt once in a while, then that's just the price of it. But it's worth, that's what it is to live. That's what it is to live to me. It's yeah, I could stay home and avoid any, all kinds of pain. I could also never see the sun, never, never feel the, the, the sand of the beach in between my toes and never feel the wind in my face when I, I ride a Harley, right? I ride a motorcycle, right? I could, I could not do that. I'd be a lot safer in a lot of ways if I didn't do it.

Yeah.

Dennis Hull (40:30.126)
if I can worth it to me. So I wanna live. don't care. I care about where things can hurt me. And I'm gonna pay attention to that. I'm gonna listen to those shadows and demons and honor them and have compassion for them. But they do not take the wheel.

Yeah. Do you think that we need to up our intake or capacity for pain or willingness to sit with it or be with it or discomfort? mean pain as far as like discomfort too.

I do. I think that I think it's really important to develop our ability to sit in discomfort. Yeah. I was in Tulum for an event the beginning of August, like eight days in a cenote, which is like an underground cave. I don't know if everybody knows what that look it up. C-E-N-O-T-E. Cenote. It was a beautiful experience and it was a lot, a lot, a lot. It brought up a lot. mean, some of it very, very physical. Like we did the

We did the Temescal, which is like the sweat lodge. God, it was so hot and so uncomfortable. But I realized in that that this is what I'm here to do, is sit in the discomfort. And was one of the first things we did. And the whole week was me sitting in a lot of discomfort and just saying that that is why I'm here. I went in, people saying, know, do you know why you're here? Like, I really don't know why the hell to be here, but it was that.

personal

Dennis Hull (41:56.972)
really walking away saying, yes, I need to remind myself that we do need to learn to sit in discomfort. We do need to build our capacity, know, and maintain our capacity for sitting in things that are uncomfortable to us, right? It's,

I mean, that's part of the reason why I sauna is because I'm like, okay, 40 minutes, 150, 160 degrees. there's, you know, sometimes I distract myself. I'll do a little journaling or reading. And sometimes I'm like just moving. And I'm like each time though, it's like, I love a good twofer. I like I'm, you know, like I'm getting, I'm eliminating some toxins. I'm connecting myself. Most of the time I don't have my phone in there sometimes.

Take a little selfie here.

And if things get to be too much, you can take a break. There was a woman in there that like, she, I don't like, they had to open a flap and let air in for her. And that was the right thing to do. Right? I mean, we got beyond her level of tolerance and, know, in trauma work, that's the, what's your window of tolerance? So yes, the ability to like having the courage to expand your window of tolerance, I think is really, really valuable.

Sometimes I open up the door and let some...

Kristin (43:11.502)
Because I think there's a difference between expanding the window of tolerance of pain or what we're willing to sit in the discomfort with and clinging to it because it's known. Oh yeah. Right? And then I think that if the more you sit in the discomfort in some kind of equal and opposite way, maybe it points to the amount of pleasure or joy that you can have or experience too. So in some ways, at least that's what I told myself when I was navigating a lot of like,

Yeah, I

Kristin (43:41.346)
depression or dark sadness, grief. I was like, well, if this is how low I can feel, and I got a lot of joy that I have potential to reach. That's right. I just gotta.

How do I bounce back? How do I use this to launch? And what's it teaching me? What is this here to teach me? And then sometimes like, I don't give a shit when it's here, it just fucking hurts. Right? Sometimes it just hurts. But when you, I mean, let me ask you, for the things you've been through, I've read your book, right? You've been through some hurt and you've been through some hurt that has happened since you wrote your book.

Yeah.

Dennis Hull (44:22.444)
Can you sit with more now than you used to be able to?

For sure. Yeah. And it's easier to give myself grace. Right. Like, or even like with one of the things that I'm beating myself up now over, which I don't know how much I want to get into that. Maybe off air with a tequila or in a burger or a steak. It's like, okay, at least I recognize, I'm seeing the dots clicking sooner or like,

So.

Kristin (44:56.366)
Like, I said, okay, that was that little point that I ignored. I heard it though. Right. You know? Right.

Yeah, I mean, that's what happens first. First, there's the noticing. Yeah. And then it's like, OK, now that I notice it, I notice it after it happened. Now I can start to notice it before it happened. can't do about it or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah, or in the moment of

Like, I told myself, I knew. I just didn't listen.

So so much of that resonate, you know a year ago I did a little thing on Leola's higher love club about about embodied trust self-trust and how how easy it is to just completely ignore but you know, your body is going You know and you do it anyway

Kristin (45:47.182)
outweighed that, you know, or my desire and my hope, I think, in a moment for this possible relationship or connection to transpire. It outweighed my knowingness or my trust or my intuition tugging at me.

I have a tenuous relationship with hope.

So hard work!

Yeah, when I start hoping for things, I'm like, hmm. Because hope seems to well up when I feel like I want something, but I don't feel like I can really do anything to make it happen. Then I just start hoping for like, OK, that's what that becomes is an expectation that like, where's that going to be filled?

I think hope is beautiful too, right?

Dennis Hull (46:28.718)
But I don't know, like this is where I'm at, I don't want to be cynical, but like for me recently

No, I'm like, be a little cynical too, like counteract some of my mystical wanting to live in the clouds sometimes.

Sometimes I feel like hope and you said earlier something about give it all up to Jesus or whatever. Sometimes I feel like those things become crutches to outsource our own responsibility for ourselves. Sometimes though they're just comforting and that's okay too.

So it's another one of those things where I don't think it has to be all one way or all the other. Hope is a beautiful thing. And hope is not an excuse to do nothing.

Yeah, true. Right? It's like a vision for me. You know, it's like a vision I'm upholding, yeah, collectively, individually.

Dennis Hull (47:20.556)
Yeah, it's like, I'm going to say something here. mean, if it makes the cut, it might, I might get a lot of judgment about it, but like thoughts and prayers mean dick all to me. It feels like a way to think you're doing something, but you're not. Yes. I know that you have sympathy and I know that that you feel the way you feel. And I appreciate the sharing of the sentiment. That's not nothing. And if you are choking on a piece of steak,

Do you want me to pray for you or do want me to do the Heimlich maneuver? So my proclivity is to say, if I can do something, I will. If I cannot do something, I'm just going to move on from it and what will be will be. What I'm not going to do is sit in some liminal space between them that says I'm going to sit here. I'm going to do next to nothing and wait for shit to come to me. Wait for good things to happen to me because I deserve it in some kind of cosmic universal way.

It clearly doesn't work like that.

Yeah, I think there's something to be said for the power of intention. And I don't know, someone was telling me some studies where people that did and did not believe in prayer and the ones that focused intention, loving prayer, those people still had an effect or it shifted something. And I'm gonna remember the person that showed up on my doorstep versus the person that just sent me the comforting text or the, know, so I have to, and for me, I love.

words of affirmation. I've learned over time for actions to back it up or actions are going to speak louder than those words sometimes. love a good letter. I love words and that has to be like met with like a certain level of action.

Dennis Hull (49:10.754)
Especially now since chat GPT

God, yeah. actually just had a conversation with my, I mean, even myself, I've got to check myself and hold myself accountable with chat because I think it's a great tool. Yeah. And I just told my assistant that I'm like, I'm going to pump the brakes on the amount of chat that we use and I've got to pour my heart and use my brain and my intention into the podcast descriptions and titles.

because yes, it may be able to optimize something for YouTube, but I think that the level of heart can be felt. And so I'm gonna bring you a little bit more things in-house. And just because it's faster doesn't mean it's always better. Scenic route.

has the words, but not the heart of the poet. know, and I use it, but I take advice from it. Right? Like the people that are going in and using it as their therapist. I use it like if I'm stuck on something, can't quite, I'll just be like, okay, I'm going to dump some shit in here, like just to give me a thread of something to go with. I use it for inspiration. Like, you know, give me some topic ideas for what it, but I don't just copy and paste out of chat.

I haven't thought, yeah, not there.

Dennis Hull (50:23.022)
Yeah. Or any AI. use Perplexity. Perplexity is another AI, but it's an excellent research tool. Like I really want to know more about, I don't know, pick a subject. I don't know what's, tariffs. I want to know more about you. There's a subject, whatever you, however you feel about it, you want to know more. Go into Perplexity and it goes to like so many sources and gives you a summary with links back to sources all the way back to primaries. I really like that tool for research.

For chat, I just like to use it to organize words. That's how I would put it. And that's all it is for. It's a language and logic chopping engine. It's not, chat GPT is not giving you insight. It might look like insight. It might feel like it, but it's not looking at you in the eye and saying, you know, it is logic chopping and language chopping based on all the shit you fed it. It's it's telling, it's parroting back what you've already said in different words.

Yeah, I did ask it the other day. use the voice function and I was like, remind me of my greatness. Right. like that. can you give me a little supportive one or two minute blurb on. Well, you didn't call me for that. Yeah, true.

Like everybody, I'm going to break the fourth wall. Y'all can call me, like, I love to give words of affirmation when they're genuine. So you call me for that. I got you. I got you boo. You got, I got, I wrote a bunch.

My hyper-independence, you know, I've shared with you some of the memes that have been worked with Wudrow. Some of them I want to work around as like the hyper-independence thing. And it was like, you know, sometimes it still kicks up with the independence thing, but I'm like, but when I realize that that's not really what I wanted.

Dennis Hull (52:07.822)
The thing, know, can I speak to that? So hyper-independence particularly, because I do, most of my work is with women. I have coached a few men and I will, I'm sure again, but my work is typically aimed at women. Now it's directly because that's who was gravitating to me. But hyper-independence, like we've definitely created a culture that has forced that. And there's another one of those things where I think it's nuanced because it's really.

Like in a way you, you're unfuck withable. Like you don't really need anyone in the sense of being able to get through your day, survive your life. You can take care of yourself and it's, there's a lot of power in that and it's amazing. And you should only do it when you want to, not because you have to. And I think that as men, what we want to recognize in women in general, but a woman like you in particular is, yeah, you can do anything entirely on your own.

But I don't want you to have to. I can be helpful, if I can be some. And sometimes that's all it is. Right? You just, what you want, I think, I just probably should be putting this in the form of a question, but I'm saying, I'm making it a statement because it's come out of my work. You don't need me to fix things. You don't need me to do things as a man in your life, regardless of the nature of the relationship. Sometimes it's just presence.

want to.

Kristin (53:14.285)
Yeah.

Dennis Hull (53:33.582)
Just be there, make me, just remind me that I am in fact not alone. I am independent, but I'm not independent because I'm isolated and alone. I'm independent because I know I've got support when I need it. And you fucking deserve that. You should have that. Everybody should have that. It's so pronounced in the hyper independent woman who then becomes so unfuckwithable and so I don't need men in my life.

Yes, in present.

Kristin (54:02.242)
I love

But then she creates a life that prevents her from having the men in her life that she wants.

Maybe we can talk about that one. we can. Riff on unavailable. What's that? I said riff on unavailable. Yeah, unavailable in some way.

riff on unavailable unavailable meant like what you can help say more

I was like, I'm like, is that a way to protect one of itself is being attracted to unavailable in some way.

Dennis Hull (54:31.309)
Hmm. Well, I can give you my theory about that. This is not gender specific. I think we all get attracted to the unavailable because we feel like if we can get its attention, we win. It becomes a little bit of a game somehow. Like if I can make a person of that quality see me and like me and love me, that it says something about my worth and value.

Okay.

Kristin (55:01.23)
Or get them to be emotional.

I that like, you know, how often in your life have you like, there's no question. Like you've had, you've had men in your life that like they're into you immediately and you just feel fucking smothered. Like, dude, give me a break. Too soon. Like it's not gonna work. Yeah. I don't want that. And then you have the guy that's kind of aloof and kind of like, I wish he was around more and he's not. And which one do you start to be like, you know, this is why.

That's too soon. Too bad.

Dennis Hull (55:29.72)
This is why there's that thread of men's work that wants to play with that game.

Is that the polarity stuff?

There's that to me it's a it's a it's the it's a dark view of polarity and men and I'm not gonna say too much but You may have to edit this out so I'm just gonna say on December 10th I'm actually going to do a talk on this in the pleasure priestess program this kind of subject on just kind of this thread of men's work that is a little about So I guess I tell you the title about it. Yeah, the title is basically to say we want the game

okay. On,

Dennis Hull (56:04.436)
We want the dance, we don't want the game. It is about polarity. But there is a lot of popular polarity view, particularly in men's work, that promotes the game.

okay.

that I should make myself intentionally unavailable to you. That's a taste of it. There's a lot more. Unfortunately, that will not be public. It's only in the Pleasure Priestess program, which you're still in.

yeah.

Kristin (56:33.358)
You can join, yes, I signed up for another year.

So if you know, this is a plug for Leola.

Yes, you can totally join us in pleasure boost.

And in the Pleasure of Priestess and I will probably, depending on the response from that, if it's as good as I hope it will be, I will probably turn that into something more significant. Because I do think there's a lot of polarity teaching, particularly in men's work, that is a little shadowy and dark and not quite.

Yeah, games don't feel like it's honest and true.

Dennis Hull (57:02.636)
Yeah, that's right. you like energetically, you know it, but it can play on things like that hope, right? Those feelings that you have. Yeah. So I feel like that kind of got off the topic a little bit about the question was the question was unavailable. it was about like the draw to the unavailable. Yeah. I think we just, you know,

You have the vision that I have.

Kristin (57:21.802)
I don't

Dennis Hull (57:31.928)
Like you see someone, you feel someone and you're like, ooh. Like if I could just get their attention, I could just get them to want.

Yeah, I think, know, for me, there's a piece of it too, like my dad was a little bit emotionally unavailable. And so I read this book called Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendricks. And he talks about how a lot of times we're attracted to our people that have the traits or qualities of our primary caregivers because we're trying to rewrite a script. And if they say, if I can get that new person to be emotionally available or be this, then it's kind of repairing or rewriting that narrative.

I don't know.

I heard someone say one time that when you meet someone who feels like your soulmate, you meet this man, oh, it's my soulmate. I feel like I've known him forever because you have, it's your dad. Like, wow, okay, let's think about that for a minute. I think that that's probably an extreme view, but there's some fucking truth to that and it's really uncomfortable. Like you did it, I don't like that at all.

But there is, there does seem to be something to say about that. Either it's the version of the parrot that you wanted and didn't have, or it's the version of the parrot that you had that you miss.

Kristin (58:50.036)
Ooh, interesting.

god, that is so...

Why do I want to vomit a little bit now?

Like to me, just feels like everything I thought that made me unique and independent is all bullshit because I'm basically just constantly looking for attention from my parents. My whole damn life.

Or if I can get enough attention also.

Dennis Hull (59:13.942)
Yeah, I have no agency, no real free will. Everything I'm doing is somehow clambering for attention that I never got. I feel like I never got.

That reminds me, I had an epiphany a few months ago, and it kind of indicates to me or touches on the power of stories and self-discovery and growth and stuff. Yeah, I had been working, and this kind of ties into the hyper-independence thing too. That served me a lot in life, accomplishments and stuff like that. But I feel like there was an underlying current of wanting to earn my dad's pride or to be someone that he would be proud of.

And then I was revisiting this little booklet, because I'm creating a writing course. And I was going through and I was asking dad, what are the most proud moments of your life? And he wrote in his handwriting, that would be the moment that you were born, or the day you and your brother were born, and the day I saw you graduate or something. And I just had this moment of, mean that I have been working towards something my entire life that you had for me since I was born?

Yeah. Right. Right? Great. Okay. Now what do I do with that?

And all it would have taken is to just say it once in a while. it out loud.

Kristin (01:00:31.246)
Right. Yeah. But that's how I tell people, you know, because he's been gone since 2013, at least like physically. So I'm like that and that way our relationship has strengthened beyond his physical death. I don't know how. So thanks for your emotional unavailableness, even though sometimes it's still raring and roaring up in my dating life.

It's, you know, the moment that a person realizes that for the most part, their parents did the best they could. Yeah. Like, I think back to like, I was 10 years old when I started having like, some of my strongest memories are from around that time. And my parents this and my parents that. We were fucking 30 years old. Yeah. You know, I think when I was 10, my mom was 29 years old when I turned 10. I was born when she was 19.

I was a fucking train wreck at 29. I'm barely getting by now. You know, I mean, I think we both feel like that sometimes that we're just, we're hanging on by our fucking fingernails. And here I'm, you know, it's so easy to look back and blame. I mean, I have hurt from my relationship with my parents, but they didn't do anything wrong. Purely circumstantial. And they were doing the best they could. And who knows what they were carrying from their parents and their, all the way back to.

The beginning of time, you know.

And one, amount of information and like tools that we have now versus then. And like, I've read something one time where it's like, it's your parents' first time going, doing this too. And I was like,

Dennis Hull (01:02:00.888)
don't know how far back you go with it, do you know why women have a hard time deciding what they want to eat? No. Because when Eve made a decision, she condemned all of humanity. She decided she wanted an apple. So of course, like, I don't want that fucking responsibility. But that's tongue in cheek. Like, how far back do you go to know where pain, like intergenerational pain originated?

No, but we're about to have to go through this.

Kristin (01:02:13.003)
god.

Dennis Hull (01:02:30.046)
Everybody has had it. Everybody's doing the best they can, most of the time under the circumstances. Some people crack. I'm not going to go so far as to say that genuine evil doesn't exist in the world, but I think there are a lot of times where it's unclear to me that people who do certain things are really making sane, coherent choices. I have made some insane, incoherent choices in my life. Right.

and wrote a book about it.

And most of mine are like, I guess in the grand scheme of things, fairly benign to other people. But, you know, I think most of our parents are doing the best they can do. know, and like in your case, then you lose a parent before there's an opportunity. Like I've had epiphanies as a parent of mistakes that I made and things I wish I had done differently. And I've been able to go back to my kids and have conversations and say,

You know, I feel this way. How did this impact you? like, clear it. know, address it. What if you don't have that?

You find it in a ketamine session. Right. That's what I did. I like that.

Dennis Hull (01:03:36.989)
Hey.

Dennis Hull (01:03:42.136)
Yeah, so that, mean, in a way, that's what, aren't we all trying to just kind of figure out the pain, where did it come from? How can I make friends with it? How can I understand it? How can I have compassion with myself for how I deal with it?

We're all just trying to figure this out, yeah.

Kristin (01:03:56.462)
And how can I extend that grace to ourselves and like our friends and neighbors that we're walking this earth with? Right. Like, yeah, I think that's a good little note to kind of like end on for sure. I like ending it with the humanness too, or like what you pinpoint too, like we're all just figuring it out.

Yeah, and it's, you know, I'll give you a quote because this has been coming up so much for me recently. And I think it's actually, I don't know when this will air, but certainly valuable in light of,

Probably next week.

Kristin (01:04:27.754)
Everything that transpires.

And the quote, forget who said it. have to look it up. Might be George Bernard Shaw. Trust the man who seeks the truth, doubt the man who finds it. That we're all just out seeking the truth. We're all out sense making. And we just don't want to fucking do it alone. It's not about finding the answer, I don't think. I think it's about walking the walk together. Tribal community being connected.

Yeah.

Dennis Hull (01:04:57.934)
in a world that is increasingly designed to prevent us from exactly those things.

to finding that coherence date. I actually sent something to a friend of mine. was wondering if I could find it real quick because it was a really, I love the note. shit. Let's see if I can find it in this TikTok message. We send like 2 AM TikToks to one another. yes. What feels like collapse is actually coherence returning. I love that. I love that.

That's a good refrain.

So that gives you any hint to what our 2 a.m. TikToks have been about. I'm getting Dennis Hall. Thank you again for showing back up and doing an in-person session. let's go get find a burger. Let's eat, I can too.

I can sit here and talk to you. And I am ready to As long as you'll have me, I will sit and talk to you all day. This won't be in on the benefit of the cameras, but.

Kristin (01:05:51.976)
Yes, yes, we'll have to report back. You can keep on coming back. Thank you.

We'll report back.

Thank you. Have a nice day.