Sex, Drugs, & Soul

82. The Future of Addiction Medicine: Psychedelics, AI, and Rewriting Your Story | Dr. Jason Giles

• Kristin Birdwell • Season 3 • Episode 19

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“When courage overcomes habit, your story begins to change.”

In this episode, I chat with Dr. Jason Giles—addiction medicine specialist, author, speaker, and a man who has walked both sides of the story.

Once a high-achieving anesthesiologist addicted to fentanyl, Dr. Giles opens up about the addiction, the rock-bottom moment that changed everything, and how he has since helped more than 10,000 patients overcome substance use disorders.

We dive into the future of addiction medicine and explore:

🔥 The power of story: how the narratives we tell can trap or transform us
🧠 Why healing requires presence, not perfection
🍄 Psychedelics as Windex for your beliefs
🪞 Letting go of outdated identities & investing past pain into future power
📱 Mindless scrolling, dopamine traps, & the algorithmic illusion of control
🧬 Why intuition isn’t mystical
🤖 How AI could become your digital accountability buddy

If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s possible to rewrite your life’s narrative… this episode is your invitation.

00:00 Introduction to Addiction and Personal Journey
00:52 The Role of Trauma in Addiction & The Story We Tell Ourselves
02:59 Dr. Giles' Journey into Addiction Medicine
08:50 The Descent into Addiction
14:39 The Turning Point and Recovery
20:26 The Impact of Psychedelics on Healing
25:58 The Intersection of Technology and Addiction Recovery
31:44 The Importance of Intuition and Self-Reflection
37:28 Navigating Life Changes and Personal Growth
43:15 Conclusion and Future Directions

Connect with Dr. Giles:

Website: http://drjasongiles.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjasongiles
Instagram: http://instagram.com/drjasongiles
Substack: http://drjasongiles.substack.com
YouTube: http://youtube.com/drjasongiles
X: http://x.com/drjasongiles

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Why are you feeling tender today? Well, we can just start it like that, Dr. Jason Giles. I'll just let you say your name. Dr. Jason Giles. I've been feeling tender. Welcome back, guys. Because addiction um is a very near and dear topic to my heart and I've lost a lot of people. And I know that you've walked the walk and now you're talking and showing us others a path that you've been down yourself, which I think is an interesting perspective. um It's a vulnerable and open and authentic expression too. uh I love that you're an addiction medicine specialist, author speaker. I love to dive into some of your personal journey as well as like kind of some of the insights that you have for why that recovery doesn't work. or how we can shift that. I thought it was interesting too that you had mentioned about AI. And I was like, well, how does AI play into this? And I you've crafted some tech that will help addiction as well. Cool. That's a lot of stuff. Where you located, Kristen? What part of the world are you in? Nice. I like Boston. huh. I was there last year, not this year. Yeah, well, if you're here again, let me know. We could always do an in-person session. That would be fun. That would be fun. Yeah, I like Texas. I have a thousand relatives in Texas. My dad grew up in San Antonio. Oh, okay. So he had, I think, six brothers and sisters. so I have not a thousand, but I've got probably 50 cousins all around there. I sprinkled throughout the state. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, and then tell me about your audience. Last time I looked at, you know, it was like 60, 40, like 60 female, 40 male. um Mid-20s to mid-40s is probably the biggest chunk and then there's some beyond that too, older. and ah what message is going to resonate most with A lot of my listeners, I mean the episodes that have gotten a lot of downloads do pertain to addiction or recovery stories and that. Or psychedelics as well. um I actually just had a profound little microdose session this past weekend that I'm still integrating. Yeah. so um it's been beautiful. I'm coming, I'll tell you, I'm tender fresh off of someone that died, addiction complications, but not directly related last February, but it's very much been baked into my life and like people that I know and care about and love. And um I also believe like that it's, that's not, that's the, what is it called? That's not like the core element that's the issue or problem. I think it's trauma. I was going to get curious about your take on that too. Yeah, and and how you relate to it work that more than what happened. It's what you think about Mmm, like the meaning that you're assigning Exactly. But the story you tell yourself, what this event means, that's the key. Because you've got to tell yourself a different story, otherwise you'd be stuck. Go into the hardware store for a loaf of bread. Yeah It's not gonna work. Oh, yeah, I love all those metaphors. They help it like sink in for me and for people in general. So, okay, perfect. Shall we? uh feel like we're walking already so we can... We're already talking. Yeah, you can edit this. Yeah, very nice to you open to sharing where you were? Because I read that quote that you sent that says, when courage overcomes habit, your story begins to change. And I was just like, wow, that's really powerful. I think of courage and I think of the heart. And I was curious if you could take us back to the moment where your courage finally whispered enough. Or if we need to give any context before that to lead up to that point. Yeah, it's in the recovery world. Sometimes that's called the qualifier, right? It's what brought you in, what are you doing here, how'd you wind up in this world? I think that's an excellent place. So yeah, I'm Dr. Giles and what my life looks like today is I'm an addiction medicine doctor and we help dozens of treatment centers with their patients going through the recovery journey, detox and mental health and psychiatry and so forth. early stabilization piece. But long ago, now it's long ago, when I was a baby doctor, I was training in anesthesia. I was working on becoming in anesthesiology. that was dream come true. That was for me something I'd worked toward for a long time, difficult to get to. I went to one of top kind colleges in the country. that was part of the journey along the way. That was great. I was starting to feel like maybe I had a chance and then I got to medical school and that was great. And I had this notion from growing up that I could work my way through the way I felt about myself. Not work on myself, work on the world, work on problems, work on help. uh Yes, the external. And I got really good at that. So I got good at academics, I got good at uh taking tests. And then when the test turned into real life, managing patients, helping them through their challenges, it was great. And I picked the most difficult specialty I think there is, which is anesthesia. Anesthesia is all patients of all ages with all problems, all surgery at all times. And I love the complexity and I love the, I love taking them on this journey. You were talking about having a journey with psychedelics and there's a spiritual journey going through a surgical procedure, whatever that is, whether it's an emergency one and it's a, or traumatic or whether it's scheduled and you're trying to deal with this problem, a broken leg or. appendicitis or whatever it is. All those things are very interesting to me. But as I was in my last year of training and heading toward leaving the nest, becoming responsible out in the world, I was very anxious about taking on that responsibility. I carried this idea that despite all of the external stuff, which sounds like I was on track. And if you looked at me from the outside, you probably guessed that I was. But the way I felt inside was that I was uh fake and not real and didn't belong and not smart enough. was amazing, not smart enough despite what it looked like on the outside. So uh I was looking for a way to deal with those feelings of uh feeling not right or uncomfortable, didn't like how I felt. And probably an occupational hazard, I had access to the most potent chemicals in the world for changing the way you feel. I mean, these chemicals make it so you could undergo chest surgery and not care at all, wouldn't bother you. oh Open heart surgery. oh out and give you the right medicines and that would happen and then they'd wear off and so I thought who better than me to manage these things I I'm an expert in these chemicals and when I told the story long ago this story is now 25 years old but when I told the story long ago I used to have to repeat the name of the drug that No one did what it was. But now everybody knows what fentanyl is, right? Fentanyl is an international scourge. It's not just terrible in America, but it's everywhere. And so fentanyl and I had a conversation and I asked it for help and it was very polite. It was super helpful in terms of changing the way I felt and why I thought it was so good, why I picked it was it wears off quickly. I didn't want to become a drug addict. I just wanted to use a little fentanyl, which I think is helpful. Also, I love the the reframe I think you offered with four people listening in for myself about so I had a little conversation and asked for a little help. The conversation even just how you're reflecting upon it now. Yeah, the story. Yeah, so I think that that's like a living example that you just gave. Yeah, sure. mean, then, listen, now I feel differently about it than I did back then. Then it was the worst thing that ever happened. was a catastrophe. My life was over. My career was over. And before all of that went down, I was terrified that that was going to happen. Paradoxically, the thing that I was using to manage the way I felt was the thing that made me feel more separate and more distant. Mmm. or like I didn't fit. So yeah, that was funny in retrospect, but not very funny at the time. So uh it worked and I thought, okay, well, I'm going to leave this alone. I can use this later in case I feel really bad. And listen, mean, boo hoo, right? I was doing the job that I wanted. I was working in a very high power life and death field. And... Even now, I judge myself about it it sounds foolish to why did I just say, hey, Kristen, I'm feeling really anxious and overwhelmed, like I'm not good enough at this job and that I won't be. All of which was not true, but that's certainly how I felt. If I'd said that, I could have avoided all of this near-death, multiple times near-death experience. But I didn't have the courage to ask for help. uh I didn't think I deserved help. Yeah So I kept managing and I tried it and I didn't die. And that probably was the worst thing that could happen because I tried it again and it worked, not as well, which means I probably needed more. did, but even that didn't work as well. It was the first time. And then I'm on the road to tolerance, independence. The whole road didn't last very long. It was less than a year of... you know, several weeks and then a couple of weeks and then a week and then a few days and then regularly until... Oh, did we freeze for a sec? And then until it was... uh something that I was using not just to feel good, but I had to use it to feel less. off. And so on the day, on the day this all came, came down, I was, it was once again, I was just had to get through a day because it, because it's short acting. If I could suffer for a couple of days, I'd probably get over the hump two, three days. That'd be the worst of it. That's what I thought. And so every morning I'd wake up miserable, ah sick. I'd pull myself together, get to the hospital to, to work. I'm not intoxicated, but I, but I need to be right because I'm, I'm in withdrawal. I go through the day, I do whatever the work is. I had this very bright line about not using while I was taking care of patients, but it was not in any great shape to take care of patients. Even though I wasn't technically under the influence of the narcotic, I was definitely under the influence of what I had been doing. And so all I had to do was go home and not use. It was very easy to get the drugs back then. People weren't paying attention. You know, it's just some accounting tricks and There was essentially infinite supply in the pharmacy. None of the patients suffered. That probably would have tipped people off. There was a limitless supply, we'll call it that. And so day after day, I would make a promise that I just have to leave the hospital after work and don't use and everything will be on the way to getting better. And then all this story, I never have to tell anybody this story because it'll all be in the past. Mm. So I broke my promise to myself again and used as much as I could get, which was enough to feel not quite so horrible for a few hours. And then I was after work, sitting in my car, feeling bad, but also feeling a little better. And I got a page from the department chair, which for those of you who haven't gone through residency or, you know, been in a big organization. The department chair is at the very top and I'm very near the bottom as a trainee, right? resident, but a very junior doctor. And it took me a minute to figure it out because I don't recognize, back in the pager days, would page your number and you put your number after it so people knew who was calling. Well, Kristen's calling. And then the number that you sent in is the number I call back to. But I had to flip through this card we had with everyone's name on it until I found this number, department chair. So, dum, dum, dum, right? Yeah. beating faster as you're eating clips. uh Yeah. Kind of relief and terror at the same time. You know, this ride's going to end. I don't know how it's going to end, but this going to end. So I called and he said, no, no offense. And we're not casting any accusations, but there's a large amount of fentanyl missing from the pharmacy supply. If it's all back by tonight, then there's no problem. And this, this phone call never took place. And as if I, as if I were squirreling in a way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I said, uh instead, can I talk to you? He said, I was hoping you would say that. And that began the journey to uh recovery, to uh treatment, to all the things that I didn't know. I didn't know how my mind worked. I didn't know that there were other people. I didn't know I wasn't the only one. I I was the only one who had ever done this. And in that phone call, he said, I'm so glad that you said that because a couple of years before you joined the department, we had a resident here. who we found dead in the colon. And so, uh, I said, if you do this, you will, you'll get well, you'll recover. You're a great doctor. We love having you here and we want you to come back to the hospital once you're all back. I didn't believe him, but I did, I did think that, okay, well, maybe this won't have the worst. I may not die from this. And without having a better plan, I was out of ideas. I just did what they said. And so they said, show up here, do this, don't use, uh, keep showing up, and then there was a whole bunch of things that they asked us to do along the way, go to treatment and whatnot. um None of that would have stuck unless... something changed unless something changed. And so even back then, even when I didn't feel brave at all, I felt very fearful and cowardly. I jumped into the unknown, which was trying to do something different, trying to do it a different way. In that process, I found that I was mistaken. That's the main thing. I was just mistaken. I thought that I needed something in order to be okay. I thought I needed something in order to make it, get through, get by. And it turns out ah I was wrong about that. I not only don't need some chemicals or a drink or something to get through, I need to not do that. I need to not do that so that I can be, so I have a shot at being present, right? I have a shot. And if you can be that wrong about something you're so sure of, well, maybe I was wrong about something else. Maybe I was wrong about other things. And eventually, just to spoiler, I figured out I was wrong about myself. That there wasn't actually anything wrong with me at all. It's just a story I told myself. It's a story I told myself that had great results because it propelled me through all this academic stuff and propelled me work. door. I didn't need that story. That story had served its purpose, which was to get me to begin that pursuit, but it um was not at all sustaining and it was not at all true. was like you draw a line through the first couple of points on the data and you think, okay, well, I know where this is going, but those two points were outliers. Those two points were the mistakes, but I just kept drawing the line. So what happened to me is I went, I did all these things. I was involved in a program that's the gold standard for care, which is for physicians, has a 90 or 95 % success rate. I was in a good group. And then I changed. I still liked anesthesia. I went back, I went back and finished. I went back and worked. I did that. I did a fellowship in pain medicine also, because I was interested in that world, how people manage pain, physical pain, but oral pain. And then uh a fellow I'd known from way, back before any of this, from when I was actually a teenager, had started a treatment center and said, we need your help. He'd been following along, know, because we were close, he followed along with my story and he said, I think you can help us if you're willing to come down here. And this is very different job than do it, was doing cardiac anesthesia, sober, back in the OR. And I said, okay, well, I'll try it. took a six month leave. I went down there and it was like the fish met the water. It was exactly the job that I was supposed to do. been doing it ever since. And I never went back. And where are you at? So that was in Southern California. um And that's where the treatment center was on the Malibu beach. That was kind of the new thing. And I stayed there for a while and then I left on my own and had a really, I don't know, very interesting, fancy, boutique private practice of people who were never going to go to treatment. Really super high functioning, very famous people. For about 15 years until all the lockdowns came and wasn't so, it wasn't such a good idea to be flying around. was on all these planes and stuff all over the country and all over the world. And so I started doing telemedicine and getting back to my roots in the treatment world. And now I have a telemedicine company where we have lots of doctors and providers and nurses helping, as I mentioned earlier, lots of treatment centers. So it's a way to take all of what I learned and I don't know what the right word is. Leverage is probably the right word, it's really spread the thing so our patients get the benefit of all the mistakes I made and all the learning that I did along the way, you know, what not to do, but also the good program. the doctor's program. Well, I love just the sharing of your story too, because I think a lot of times people can craft images in their mind about addiction and they don't automatically think, doctor, you know? Or they think maybe the person that's begging for change at the intersection or something like that. So it's very, like it's a contrasting imagery versus like the default knee jerk. And it's vulnerable, so I do thank you for sharing. And you mentioned something about like being present or like the, I don't know, a recovery led you or made you being, I just wrote it down and circled it. Cause I was like, okay, is that a big piece of it? Is that not feeling safe enough to be present or to be in the body? Yeah, I think that, I mean, that's a theme with so many things is people, I certainly, mean, exhibit A of trying to escape from, um escape from myself, right? If you have a not great opinion of yourself, then you want to try and get some distance between me and me. Yeah. And since you can't be... can't be in two places at the same time. So it's chemical substances for sure, but there's lots of behaviors that will take us out of the moment and out of ourselves. In one way, that's good. athletes, when they're at peak performance, I wonder if anybody watched the basketball game last night, those guys were really going at it in the NBA finals, Indiana and Oklahoma, and they're all playing at their absolute top. And to perform at that level, you're almost, I don't know, possessed or inhabited by something bigger than just running up and down the court and bouncing the ball. Some of your listeners should be familiar with something called the flow state, where time stops, right, or slows, and you're so fully immersed in what you're doing. So that's good, that's a good thing to do. But you can do that in a way that's not good for you. You could scroll through Instagram to the point where you look up and it's been an hour. I've definitely been in a TikTok hole. know, because I'm also feeling like I'm learning something. And I'm like, oh, it's, I'm like, da, da, da, da. But I'm like, and it's just nice sometimes. It's like, me fucking disconnect. So I've definitely had those moments. So the thing about that, the thing about the repetitive behaviors, and if you broaden the tent and think about substances, it's a very repetitive behavior. It's not even about, I told you in my story, at the end, I wasn't getting high. There was no lift from, right? It wasn't even making me feel all the way better physically, just a little less. So drinking is the same, marijuana is the same, and fed beans are the same. Downers are the same that when you use them over and over, have diminishing returns. But people don't quit using them when the returns diminish. What do they do? They use them more. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I to know someone that I would have never been able to pinpoint his usage. It was just using it to function in a way so that he wouldn't go through withdrawals. Right. Yeah, and I would have never thought because I'm like, he's eating, he's sleeping, he's da-da-da, like day to day, like from the outside looking in, I would have never guessed. ah you mentioned those substances. that makes me curious what the other like, know, ketamine or mushrooms or... maybe some other psychedelics, ayahuasca offer or Ibogaine. I've heard Ibogaine, I don't know too much about it, but is in the addiction field. How do those differ from those other ones as far as like the neuro, I guess. Yeah, the so-called, you know, nootropics or psychedelics or um perception altering drugs. It's an interesting circle drawn around this group of chemicals, but alcohol is perception distorting and so is cocaine. Right? Right. They all change the way we feel. They all change the way we think and the way we feel. What the psychedelics do, we'll pick on them for a second, what they do is they take the filters off of your brain, right? They take the filters off the information coming in. And I don't know, if you've ever taken a shower in the last 20 years, They have these little washers that they put in there starting, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago. Water would come out and you'd beat on your back and you'd wash out all the soap if you're taking a shower. And now it's like weak and dribbly. There's so much information coming in. If you think about all the sensory neurons in your body, eyes, ears. Taste all your internal organ sensations your guts doing anything your muscles your joints where they are in space all that information is constantly being sent up to your Processing most of it the brain ignores Because it's not important right now You're not really thinking about how you're feeling while you're sitting in your chair Because it's not important when you first sat down really important because we want to make sure it's still there and so That information is being relayed but the brain has a filter to ignore it. And what LSD or D &T or drugs like that do is they dilate up those little washers and make them bigger. So more information flows into the brain. Now, here's why that might be good. Might be good because if your story that you're telling yourself is a bad one and you're stuck with this idea, like I was telling you about myself, It may be good to look at, think of it like Scrabble. If you're playing Scrabble and you've got your seven tiles, right? You've got your word. You can try and make out of the letters that you have and whatever's on the board. What if you could use the whole bag? You could probably make different words. I have all these letters. I can make whatever word. more creative. Oh, there's one that worked for me. Yeah. You can use this Z in here. exactly. Triple word score. that's way to think about those drugs. think, well, gosh, I'd want to have all the letters all the time. You don't want to have all the letters all the time because you don't want to have every single bit of your body and the world being reported to your brain until your brain is actually smarter than the LSD. And the more you do it, the less it works. Oh, interesting. Well, that makes me feel good about, because I took a little hiatus from doing some psychedelics and, I, you know, I guess there was like a chasing, I was like, well, I want to, that peak experience or that insight or wisdom of, and I like, oh, I feel more connected to God than, or just like downloads. And it was so profound on my journey of like healing grief that I would, and then I got, and I was like, okay. I'm just gonna have to take some space. And then I revisit it for the first time in a while, like a little micro this past weekend. And that was, oh, this gave me, it was like Windex on my belief. they compare? How did one compare? Um, one, the one with my dad, it wasn't, I would say it was accidental, he roasters those, because I was with friends at first and we were playful, like playing games and then we were down by the fire pit. And then I went up to the restroom to like take some more and use the restroom. I was like, might as well while I'm up here. And then everyone goes to bed. I'm like, oh shit. Now I'm on this alone. But I lay next to, yeah, I in my bed and I put on a little eye mask and I was real scared at first, but I heard some male voice from somewhere just say, surrender. And so I did and I felt like I astral projected, connected to my dad's essence. I almost felt like I could smell him in a way. And I was like, my God, you've been here the whole time. You never abandoned me. And I felt so much unconditional love that it was just like. I had never felt that before and I was like, oh, it's all about being love and amplifying love and da, da, da, da. And then I, you know, the next, and I was just like crying and I was like, how could I have ever asked myself or wondered that you were gone? Like that seems so preposterous. I was like crying, laughing. And then the next morning I'm like, I wake up and then I just noticed the interconnectedness more of like how the hummingbird is just coming to flitter and like get a little nectar or something. And I'm just like sipping my coffee and I feel more connected to it. And it was just like a good reset. I had thought that I would never experience as much joy with my dad being gone. I was like, okay, this is my new baseline. And it was a reset. I was like, I can have a beautiful, joyful life even though my dad isn't here in his physical presence. That was the big, it was a big cathartic release too. um Whereas this last one, way smaller of an amount. Ironically, I had met some people at the Conscious Life Expo in LA and they sent me some, some called Hillbilly. And I was like, how do they know? Because I'm from the backwoods, right? The pineywoods. And so this one, was, and I'm coming up on my, my friend just died in February, or was murdered rather. And so I'm looking through old pictures and text messages, but I... and I'm listening to the ocean waves come in, because I was in Mexico. And I was just reading a message that said something about I can't wait to catch up and hear that 903 voice. And I was like, I do have a 903 voice. And then I got up and I started dancing and moving and like touching my body. And then I played Outlaw Women by Hank Williams Jr. And then I was like, you know what? Yeah, I do. I did have a grandmother or great grandmother with 12 toes and a moonshine and grandfather and an uncle that's younger than me. And I lived in a trailer and it felt like a piece that I was like ashamed or had disowned of myself for so long that coming into and stepping out of it, it was an opportunity to accept and own and celebrate. like Outlaw Women has been my... anthem for the last few days. um And I'm like, okay, got my boots on today. Like, that is part of who I am. um As far as but it's it's not the totality of who I am. But it's something that I had fragmented. And and um and I also just see, yeah, that I'm healing my clamp it heart by by doing so. So there's a little bit of a difference. And now there also just seems like So many synchronicities still post. mean, that was very recent. It was just this past Sunday. Yeah, it just felt open and expansive and a different type of experience. So that's beautiful description of what can happen is a different point of view. now reading Chip Conley's book about middle age, and middle age is between 35 and 75. in that category. Just barely. By the hair on my tinny tin tin. Yeah, it's, it's, it's let's say the longest phase of our lives is phase and chip talks about we, uh, we get ready as you're, as you're going through, right? Your school is all about getting ready for the next thing. And then you graduate and you're at work and then there's no more, there's no more getting ready. Be doing it. This is very long flat period between on your own and retired and. And so having a look at what that is, what do you want to do with this period? How, Jemre, you used to talk about investing all of your previous years into the next. I love that phrase. And so taking what you've learned, so you are, and I have a lot of family from that area also, you're 903, but you're also, I don't know what it is. I went too, so I was gonna say. uh Also, right and and New York and Paris and all the rest of places and so We're all that we're all these things and how do we how do we integrate? Right. So no, still I still have second thoughts I still think you know, am I really okay my room and That's that's probably good. C. Lewis talked about doubts how how his faith worked? That's how we knew there was something that you had to believe in because he because he had doubts and yet ah being okay with being yourself. It turns out my experience that I thought was the worst day ever was graduation, right? It was the beginning of letting go from this old life. And it hurt and it's painful and birth is traumatic. But look, right? Look. And so that's the theme. And listen, ah to the extent that the psychedelics are helpful, I think they're great. think it's an amazing frontier of medicine. I mean, not even, we found a couple of nuggets in the stream, right? Of what this is going to be in terms of helping people. There's great studies underway. There's stuff coming out where ah we're learning about its benefit for PTSD. The story that you told about the relationship with your dad, those are the best stories I've heard out of this area of, I don't know, medicine or healing or shamanism or what, I don't know. It's new, right? How are we going to do this without killing the spirit of it, right? Yeah, killing the spirit of it. And it's this reconciliation with people who that you otherwise couldn't. If you're, my dad's gone also. You can't call them up, right? Mm-hmm. And, but, but the feeling you're living with, the, the filtered memories into the present, that's something that, that's, that's here with you now. You're with me now. So. I love that phrase too. You're just giving all these like little gems, filtered memories into the present. I love that too. So, I don't know, it's unfortunate, but most people don't just walk down the street and have a new idea about themselves. There's usually some kind of... some rocky road. Yeah, Yes. Where we finally come to terms with this way is not working. This way is not working. The thing you said about scrolling about the, what do call it? The TikTok hole. Yeah, TikTok call, because also I love to learn. I have an insatiable curiosity. So it's like, and then the algorithm is crafted and such that it's like giving me a healthy dose of like, you know, addiction recovery stories or mysticism or this. And I'm like, this is bloop. And then I'm like, my God. With the amount of time passage and then the judgment of the time passage that I spent doing the thing. And then the soothing of the judgment with more time. Late to watch a movie, right? yeah, no, I know about all that. And what keeps you hooked is the possibility that there's something just around the corner. It's this anticipation. dopamine has been mislabeled. Everybody thinks about dopamine as a pleasure chemical. That's what feels good and the hit of dopamine. I mean, says this next thing is important. That's what it said. next thing's and the feel, feeling of being on the verge, right? Toes over the diving board of the next thing that's going to be important. That feels so good. So good. Yeah. This is this, be good. This next thing, this is opportunity. That's dangerous. Maybe also could be risky. Could be some news I don't want or some noise. It may be an animal that's going to attack me or might be a party. You don't know it's mystery. so mystery is attractive and the possibility that something might happen. Something important might happen. That's the sticky bit. And that's what those rollers are engineered for. They're built to get you to go well, right? Cause it's so easy to discard the last thing. Okay. That's not it. But the perpetual around the corner-ness of it. Wow, yeah. Yeah, and especially like the seek, it's so, yeah, mindless and just easy. That's so. Oh, You're moving the screen. until you do it. You're like, I'm in charge here. I'm deciding. Yeah, I mean, there's a part of me that like just wants to do no social stuff at all. uh And there's a part of me that, you know, to take all my past learnings and invest them into my future feels like I need to and like a platform to use it right here. Where it's all being broadcasted out to right now. longer you do it, right? So if it's 10 minutes or 20 minutes or an hour or maybe just 3.6 hours nationwide, now people are spending on that, is one more swipe is not much more. And the more swipes you do, the smaller each one becomes in terms of additional effort. So it's like you're getting better. It feels like you're getting better at rolling the information that comes in. Yeah, I have to turn my notifications off of my social. And I'm working text messages are next. Because I really want, you know, my ex had this thing where he would say, he's like, because he didn't have his ping, and it kind of irritate me a little bit, but I get it. He's like, I want my phone to work for me, not me to work for it. Yeah. My daughter told me that if you make your phone black and white, it's less attractive. If you put this to monochrome, it's more information. Yeah. So we're evolved to pick the red berry and we're evolved to listen for the sound and there's whole floors full of engineers that are adjusting the sound of that ding so that it's got some minor. tones in it so it sounds like there could be something wrong, you better pay attention to it. no, it's very carefully crafted. We are the product, right? Our attention is what they're mining. Yeah, attention and control, think. And I feel like we're easier to do so if we're in more of a fear-based mentality or if we're, um or we just let it pass by as if we're not being as... We just saw that, right? We just saw that with all the lockdowns from a few years ago where people are afraid and they're much more easy to push around and give up rights and freedoms that another circumstance is no way they would, right? We're easier to shove around when we're afraid. Yeah. Yeah, there was something about that that I was like, that don't feel right. I'm like, why am I picking now to start watching the news? So I watched a little bit, I'm like, uh-uh. Like then, like, because I just noticed the difference that it was having in my energetic state. I'm like, like feeding all of that information like consistently. was like, no, I'll tap in every now and then, but I like that I keep it at arm's length. But I was also very fortunate to be in a place that was had a little more. nature around it. And I had just like signed on to write my book with a coach and an editor. And so I had always asked for I just wanted the time and space to dedicate to writing, you like in so in a way, I got it. For so many people. I actually liked the introverted time for myself, reflective period. But I know that that can even ruffle feathers just leaving me saying it because it wasn't a uh collective experience. Well, um people were, it hit people differently, right? It hit some people differently, hit some people fatally, of course, but it's... It definitely shows my relationship too. Or it evolved. Well, I would say there's still love there. That love doesn't ever go away. But it was like a magnifying glass looking at my relationship and like, are we all going on the same journey? Are we deviating a little bit? um I feel like I was going over here. And uh so it was very illuminating. reflecting back, it all brought me to where I am today. And I like that person. um and listening to myself. And I feel like listening to those longings and little nudges is an act of self-love. um Now I'm curious, how, because I wanna like dive in a little bit to some of the things that you've created to help with um addiction or the nervous system in that capacity. And like I saw something about AI, was like, wow, does AI play into this too? Well, yeah, so AI is just a computer. It's just a computer that one hopes can recognize patterns. That's the- the- oh. And that's the key. So this story I told about my department chair and his experience with somebody else who had uh passed away from the same thing that I was tangling with, probably, he never actually talked about it. But my hunch is it probably elevated his sensors, right? put out the antenna a little more. You know, in retrospect, I... I lost a lot of weight. wore, you know, the surgeons when they go in and they put their gloves on and they put that gown on and it ties in the back. they say stare on the front. can do surgery. I wore one of those like a bathroom where you put in the normal way. Oh, okay. But the thing, the thing about it, besides the fact that I was cold all the time, cause I was shivering, cause I was in, and it's cold in the OR, the sleeves go all the way, all the way out to here. And so if you wear gloves and which we'll wear gloves all the time and this gown, you can't see my arms. can't see that they're bruised. Sometimes with a, you know, skin infection from whatever bacteria got in there. So maybe that was a clue, maybe how much weight I lost. maybe that I was always around, always at the hospital so that I could stay close to supply or maybe I was really dedicated, maybe I was a really dedicated doctor, but that there were enough clues where he initiated the review at the pharmacy. So I'm not right here. And so that's what AI, we hope, can do. in this field is be your own department chair. And when you're starting to drop breadcrumbs about uh behavior that when I do this, it means I'm going to do that, that there's an association with ah heading down that road, maybe the machine can say, hey, Kristin, we noticed when you, ah no, I don't know, drink sparkling water. Can't tell if that one's sparkling. I love Mountain Valley. Yeah, I want to get one those gratitude bottles, but a burp and I'm yes Like, yeah, maybe you don't know. Maybe you're, and that's a terrible example, but some of them are more on the nose, hanging around this particular part of town or you're at this bar, this thing. And so when she's with this fellow, this is what happens. and, um, right. So, um, the, the, yeah, Carly Pierce's song, right? Hide the wine. So. Okay, I don't know it but I'll listen to it in the studio. No, but I love her. I don't mind. the wine. Yeah. So it's a good example of when this happens, this is going to happen and you mean, yeah, for sure. Like there was an element too with this person that died in February. um We were talking a lot in 2022, like FaceTiming and messaging again. And I had gone uh there, like back home and saw him like around Christmas 2022. And I noticed, I just felt like super chaotic. Like there's like, you know, energy coming in and out. People like, I was just like, I don't feel safe here. um And I told him, because we were thinking about maybe reconnecting in a romantic interest kind of way. And I was like, it feels chaotic here. I can't be here for where I'm going and what I want to do in the world. I can't. And so reflectively, I'm like, I made a different choice. And then I'm like, well, look at what unfolded at the same time. And I remember going to my mom and I grew up in AA. Like I was a kid like running around on the playground, going to the, sitting through the cigarettes and coffee to go to the bathroom. I'm like, that's my stepfather, my mom was an Al-Anon, but she's like, if you go back, you're choosing it. And I was like, oh yeah. But that just was like a clear marker of like, okay, I didn't choose that. then, but so it's. something. Yeah. I grew up the same. My dad was, my dad drank and he was kind of figuring it out for 10 years until it finally caught and when it, but along the way, I remember going to a meeting as a kid and it's still there, the meeting house that he went was still there. I remember going to Al-Anon with my mom and I also remember saying, I am not going to be an alcoholic, which is a funny thing to say. I'm going to use substances to manage my feelings, I'm not going to an alcoholic. I think it's sometimes hard to defend against it, even if you do have some awareness or some insight. pattern recognition though that you also mentioned made me think of intuition like strengthen our intuition or our self our inner knowing. do you define intuition? What's your definition for intuition? Like, inner knowing that I don't necessarily have some kind of science or some kind of logical thing to back it up with. Yes. Knowledge that you can't explain. uh Intuition, it turns out, is not mystical or boogily boogily or any of that stuff. It's just you recognizing a pattern or anyone with intuition recognizes a pattern that they can't quite articulate. Sometimes you hear like, that guy's not a good guy or we should not go to that whatever. A pal of mine was just visiting And one of his friends was big in the recording industry. He was an executive in recording industry. And he told the story of being at the P. Diddy party with his friend. He went because his friend went. And they were there 15 minutes. And my pal said, we should get out of here. Mmmmm The other guy said, the guy who's a studio guy said, well, this is like my job. I have to be here for this. He said, we got to go. End. This is before anybody knew anything. This is before any of this stuff came out. But this is one of those things where he could tell that this was not a safe place. It's not a place to be. yeah, there's a book from a long time ago called Surgical Intuition. They interviewed the medical students, the junior residents, the senior residents, and the surgeons, the professors at university. was at University of Colorado. And they had various clinical cases and they asked the medical student, okay, what do want to do? Let's say appendicitis. And the medical student doesn't really even know what's going on. kind of, of knows there's something wrong with the abdomen. Maybe we need an x-ray, maybe, you know, it's just sort of scattered. Something's wrong, but we don't know what. And then as the, as the trainees were more sophisticated, as they had more experience, they came up with better answers. And of course the best answers were by the senior surgeons who had seen thousand appendicitis cases before and they would ask one question, you know, one pertinent question. You think, how did you, how do you know that? How do you dial it? Like that, like house. Back in the day. Yeah, yeah. experience comes from uh seeing these things. And in the case of, this is sort of the holy grail of the tech world in intersecting with what I do, is if the, if um you could get a call from your sponsor or from your friend in recovery or from your therapist or from someone who you trust and who's uh honest with you and vice versa at just the right time. Right. That's all you need. You don't need it. You don't need her calling you. Hey, hey, Kristen, hey, how about now? How about that would be that wouldn't work. And also you don't want her calling after, after the wheels have fallen off. gosh, I guess I should have called you. It's the timely arrival of the reminder. That's what we need. Timely arrival of reminder. And maybe if we give a bit of our lives over to the, to the programs, to the computers. They can say, hey, you know, when you wear your hair like this in front of your ears, it means you're like, what? had no idea. You realize that you're giving off clues all the Wow, interesting. That's how I think that these things could be helpful to us. It's also dangerous because they can manipulate us into. Yeah, no, that's very interesting. One second. Hey, Michael. Curious how much time we have. I know we're going over a little bit if you're listening to us. Maybe we have a few more minutes. ah Now I'm like, do I put my hair behind my ears? Suddenly conscious of my hair. So you've made some tech that can censor, mean, how is the... on. We got some early stage stuff that is, that can pick up patterns and will report. I was going say dope, but maybe that's not the right word to use right now. Or maybe the perfect word. don't know. Wow. How cool. I mean, like, and I'm curious, like, would it be something you wear? Would it be like a chip? A chip feels weird. um Cell phone. Oh, okay. We got this bad boy on us most of the time. Is it always listening, it's watching? Has anyone, have any of your listeners had the experience of talking about a product, never looking it up and then it appears in your... Or what about thinking one? Yeah. I know. I've definitely had it. I can't speak for them, but I'm like, yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I've talked to it. Da da da da da. You know. I've been like, can you put this into there? Exactly. Roses. like roses and chocolate and love letters. Or pick up their phone. know. Words of affirmation. Yeah. Come here. That's a idea. Yeah. We're like a little scene. I know we've gone over a little bit. I know we started a little late, can we drop in to kind of wrap in or wrap this up? I'm a studio rental space. I'm at a studio rental space right now, so I just have to be mindful of like the people behind me and. take you out. That's good. Well, listen, we wanted it all over the place, but the point is, if you don't like your life, the good news is it's your fault. Yeah, I love that. And by that I mean, you know, in the best way, which is that you do something about it, you can make a change, you can certainly change, I mean, listen. uh Everyone listening to the show has had some experience where they used to do something that was really bad for them and they changed and they let that go. And what we usually don't do is look at the times that we're happy and see what they have in common. Hmmmm... That's a good one. that are bad, like, yeah, I keep picking the wrong guy. In boss, a different job. We're tuned into those things, but we don't spend much time thinking about what the good times, what feelings have in common. Nature, people, levels of presence, connectivity. For me, deciding to name it as, I'm like, okay, I want to put my feet on the earth. Let me get a place with some ground. What do they have in common? And then if you look at the difference between what your life is now and what you want it to look like, you have to do today the things that will bring you to the life that you want. If you want a marginally different life, like, well, I'd like to drink five whiskeys a day instead of six. That's okay. But you don't have to do much about that right now. Really no fire. If you want to leave the whiskey behind, Right? If you want love in your life, if you want a job where you feel great about what you do, if you want kids and don't have them, if you want your kids back in your life and you're estranged from them, ask yourself, what do need to do today in order to get to life that want? And it's probably big changes if you're unhappy. In my case, I had to quit relying on chemicals to manage the way I felt. And for me, that was such a huge change. Such a huge change, it changed everything. It changed everything. Gosh, there's so much more I want to ask about that because that springs like, well then, but what about optimization like with supplements and stuff? I could go like, I'm like, oh, you know, in a way, maybe like adaptogens like a chemical type of thing, but I might have to just have you back on if you're open to it or in person when you're in Austin. I love the vibe and level of degree and presence and stuff and being to. flow with someone's energy and presence too. um let's, I would love to connect in some way. And we'll put all of the, or we, Tels, my lovely assistant, we'll put all of the lovely information and connectivity points for you in the show notes. And thank you for coming on and being so open and honest. And like your level of speech just helped instantly ground me in the pacing. And I was like, ah, yeah. was like, oh, I can breathe. You know, you're very delightful. And I'm grateful that you had me on and got a chance to talk about this stuff. I've been so looking forward to and excited for weeks now. I was like, yes. Okay, well thank you so much. Thank you very much. See you later. See ya.