77. Sex Work, Modern Dating, & the Madonna-Whore Complex: A Peek Inside the Male Psyche with Sexologist Coral Osborne

In this episode of Sex, Drugs, and Soul, I chat with certified sexologist Coral Osborne. Our paths crossed in Austin at various events, and I've been impressed by her advocacy for men and the valuable insights she shares online on topics such as dating, intimacy, and authentic relating. We also share stories from our lived sex work experiences and how they have informed our views on intimacy, personal growth, and relationships. 

We explore everything from the Madonna-Whore complex, eroticizing trauma, and self-inquiry to why men often seek out sex workers, how childhood informs our relationships, and the subtle ways we deflect vulnerability, like making vulgar jokes to avoid being seen. 

If you find yourself feeling disheartened about modern dating, confused by relationship dynamics, or curious about intimacy drivers and lived sex work experiences delivered in a no-BS style, give this one a go. 

00:00 - Introduction
02:08 - Exploring Personal Turn-Ons 
04:04 - Navigating Radical Honesty and Vulnerability
05:46 - The Impact of Past Experiences on Sexuality
09:06 - Understanding Men's Core Desires and Wounds
11:50 - The Madonna-Whore Complex in Male Psychology
14:58 - Self-Inquiry for Emotional Availability
18:06 - Dating in the Modern Age: Apps vs. Real Life
20:46 - Polarity and Gender Dynamics in Relationships
25:04 - Navigating Modern Dating Dynamics
28:03 - The Complexity of Receiving and Giving
30:30 - Understanding Masculinity and Emotional Needs
32:56 - Childhood Influences on Adult Relationships
40:23 - Addressing Common Sexual Struggles
47:20 - Upcoming Projects and Resources

Connect with Coral:
Website
Instagram
Stay tuned for her podcast that launches in July!

Connect with Kristin:
Website
Instagram
YouTube

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 4:03 Navigating Radical Honesty and Vulnerability
• 11:15 Understanding Men's Core Desires and Wounds
• 20:39 Polarity and Gender Dynamics in Relationships
• 33:17 Addressing Common Sexual Struggles

Transcript

Kristin (00:00.16)
Okay, welcome back to another episode of Sex, Drugs, and Soul. I am excited today to have on a certified sexologist, a sex and intimacy coach, Coral Osborne. She's also a consultant. I love everything that she shares on social media at the unreal, Coral Osborne on Instagram. Like trying to narrow down some of these questions. like, I mean, literally I have notes.

I'm trying to remember my brain and things I've posted recently.

Good, you're good. I'm like deep in the heart of my cycle too. So I'm like the height between that and, you know, last week's Ludi, I'm like, I've got to have my little prompting questions. feel more legit. Teach. Yeah. I'd love to just, you know, get started with maybe a couple like little icebreakers about like what's turning us on and off in life right now before we dive into some of the, cause I know you focus with men and I love that, that you're such a strong advocate for men.

Cheers.

Kristin (00:56.258)
And I'd love to, you know, explore some common sexual struggles and maybe go to some of these questions that I had or chimed in from a couple of friends. So yeah, what's turning you off and on in life this moment? can be sexual, non-sexual, can be anything.

What's turning me on is slowness. This is my new thing. My mentor says, go as fast as the slowest part of you. And that is the way to become embodied, to attune, to really feel into pleasure. And pleasure doesn't have to just be sexual either. You know, it's all things in life. It's taste, it's smell, it's...

Auditory, it's visual, it's everything, it's touch. So that's been the new trajectory I'm on because I've always been a very neurotic person. then radical honesty, I mean, that's been a thing for a while for me, but I guess I'm learning the definition more because when I first leaned into that, I was prone to oversharing and trying to bypass intimacy.

that way, so it's knowing when to feel safe and be honest with someone.

I love that. Even your just imitation and voicing it to be slower like gives me permission to say, okay, I can take a deep breath.

Coral Osborne (02:22.478)
I know I saw myself on a podcast like the other day and I was talking so fast so I'm like, Coral, we're gonna do some breath work every time we go in moving forward and

We can take a breath right now.

Yeah, take lots of pauses. Molten lava.

I love it because I can tend to be like a little squirrel sometimes. I totally like get the oversharing thing too. And I didn't realize, you know, I hadn't radically opened and healing journey or healing journey through openness, but now there is a little bit more discernment about, I'm like, okay, what do I feel comfortable sharing? And like, not everybody needs to know all the ins and outs and nooks and crannies and like, have they, you know, earned that space or that confidant or type of...

energy.

Coral Osborne (03:10.486)
Yeah, it's tough because in my experience after being repressed and living a double life, you know, from sex work for so long, then when I came out with everything or was doxxed, but then stepped into my truth, I felt, everyone felt like they were entitled to everything, to my truth, like, and I didn't owe anyone an answer.

So I leaned really heavily into that because I wanted to get my message across, but then it was like, you my nervous system kind of just froze. I was in like freeze mode where I just didn't know who I actually was within that. Like I'm like, who is Coral without speaking these things? So it's been interesting because also given the work that I do, you know, what I share like publicly.

It's more comfortable for me to do that than like one-on-one with someone. There's people I haven't even had conversations with about my past that we talk about normal things and then they see me making appearances on podcasts or going on social and talking about these things and they never ask me. So I'm like, and I don't bring it up either. So there's still work to be done there.

I think that that's an interesting point too, like the the wideness versus like the one-on-one. Yeah, like combining. Yeah

And it's almost like more comfortable to start a relationship anew and, you know, with my new self, my embodied self, then kind of regress and go back to trying to redefine the relationship that was. That is still challenging.

Kristin (04:54.27)
I love too that you mentioned like your past with sex. Whenever I discovered your story, was like, wow, she's open about it. I've had on and off like experience in that space too. And I was like, there's a big difference in deciding to share something and then being outed. And I was like, my God, that is, I'm like, my heart went out to you. Cause I was, when I watched this video, I'm like, holy shit. Like to not have that choice or to be outed by someone.

that's challenging and fucking tough and like you're putting in a vulnerable space that you didn't choose to be and in some ways and I admire your courage to continue sharing and whether on certain capacities, whether it's like broadcasting on social, whether it's in intimate spaces, because I love that your work that you're doing and would you say that that experience led to being a driver in your advocacy for men?

Yeah, 1000%. I had this whole idea of what sex work was. And my experiences of sex were not the healthiest before I got into it. You know, it's a fearful avoidant type and I had a lot of wounding around sex. I weaponized it, I used it to get validation. And

Then when I started doing sex work, I realized that there are so many reasons that men go seeking that. It's not just about pleasure. It's not just about validation. It's not just about connection. It can be all those things. It can be none of those things. So what I found the most interesting that's really stuck with me is I always equated

monogamy to good and like infidelity to bad. And there's so much nuance in between. Like I met some really great men and a lot of single men too who just could not find that intimacy out there in the real world. And I felt for them, you know? And in a way it was very cathartic for me as well because it was this radical experience of honesty.

Coral Osborne (07:15.372)
and vulnerability that was unmatched in the real world. These men would tell me things and share things with me that they would never share with a spouse, with a partner, with a best friend. And in that container, there's so much freedom to explore because it's baseline transactional. So anything beyond that is just because you're opting in and you're deciding to share and you're deciding to explore. So very little of it was about the act itself.

which will confuse a ton of people. Mind you, that's not the case for all sex workers. You know, it's positioning. you can position yourself as a super vulgar podcast host that's making jokes all the time and like, this guy came on my face and blah, blah, and LOL. Or, you you can have this analytical view of like sex and go deeper and talk about how meaningful it is to you.

And a lot of sex workers are like that as well. I knew a lot of women that, you know, they just wanted the lifestyle and they would be the ones to go to Vegas and like just be demeaned and demoralized by men. I could never do that. Like I felt like more of a whore in my dating life than I ever did in sex work ever. I actually was respected so much and

In probably a insidious way, it affected my ability to relate in the real world because I got this validation. I was in control. I ran the show and I got to be the fantasy. I was never the full, the whole person. So it served them very well. And I realized I had a knack for like delving into what

the core desires of men were, and not just sexually, but they were seeking emotionally, psychologically, and of course physically, and what they were telling people in the outside world.

Kristin (09:19.338)
Yeah, I think that I relate in so many ways because some of the people that I met, like we didn't even have a sexual relationship, but it was a very big driver for like connection and intimacy or like finding playfulness at times too, like karaoke in a room together or like, mean, and them saying it's like the best night of their lives and yeah, the confessions of.

longings and desires and secrets. like you mentioned core desires. I'm so curious too about your experience and like what some of the core drivers in those aspects were like, what were they coming to or what like emotionally.

So a lot of men's wounding comes from the Madonna work, which is a split where men can't reconcile that women are whole. So they either, you know, see women as pure and virtuous and sexless or promiscuous, desirable and unworthy of love and respect.

yeah.

Coral Osborne (10:26.08)
And that typically comes from the mother wound. So there's a few ways that can happen. You know, one of them is the mother gives inconsistent love. So, you know, she only awards, say, performance and good behavior and just isn't consistent. So then he puts her up on a pedestal. And then so women are now on a pedestal, but...

you know, a sexually free woman is seen as emotionally unsafe. And then there is shame around sex. So if your mother or parents or society shames you for being sexual, sex is bad, know, women that dress like that are bad, it's dirty, then those desires become repressed. So then the man grows up to believe that and represses desires. So he'll end up with the Madonna.

but then yearn for the whore. And then we go into emotional unavailability. So if the mother was unavailable, maybe she remarried, maybe she traveled a lot for work, she just wasn't available, then the man will seek validation through sex. And he'll go for an emotionally unavailable partner who's chaotic and exciting, highly sexualized, and mistake that for an emotional connection. And then lastly,

there's the mixed messages around masculinity. So the mother will say, you know, be nice, be a good boy, but then she will date or be married to the very assertive dominant, perhaps, you know, toxic masculine. And so the man, the young boy who grows into a man will then split and either he'll be the nice boy that has these secret desires or he'll rebel and become the dominant, you know,

assertive or toxic masculine who is always with the whore archetype. So everything can basically be traced back to that. And I think why men go to sex workers is, you know, initially they're looking for that whore experience. It's like they can be completely uninhibited and feel like they don't have to repress anything. But, you know, what ends up happening a lot is like they ended up seeing

Coral Osborne (12:47.682)
the whores, the Madonna as well. And it could, I've seen that reconciliation play out and it's pretty fascinating. I would like it to not result in men having to go see sex workers for that to happen. I'd like to preempt it. And that's like why I love the work that I do because, you know, the more you repress or suppress your core desires, the bigger they get. And then you,

tend to eroticize trauma, you know, and then they get out of control. And that's where the cheating comes in, you know, sliding into girls DMs when your girlfriend's in the next room or sleeping with the escort on a work trip or having an affair at the office. And there's a way we can address this before it gets to that point.

Yeah, I'm curious about that. If someone is like listening, like, okay, I think that I may fall into the emotionally unavailable category or the, you one of the other ones that you described, how do they begin like that self-inquiry process of identifying it and then integrating it into, you know, their dating choices or their life?

Great question. So you have to start by identifying the origin of the split. So when did that happen? You know, what was it as all the things I just listed? And what did you make that mean? And then what are you afraid will happen if you're found out? What are you afraid the woman that you're dating will find out about you if she knew, you know, what you truly desired? And then how do you cope? What do you do?

reasons I just listed. Do you go to porn? Do you cheat? You know, do you secretly text message women behind your partner's back? What do you do that perpetuates that split? And then you have to practice asserting yourself. So it's, it's, you know, not an easy process. You have to get really real with yourself. But honestly, what's the alternative? And, you know, I have a whole framework around that because I that's kind of

Coral Osborne (14:58.25)
where that's the root of everything that I work with. And like we spoke about with sex work, similarly, there's ways to A, B test women, right? Like you shouldn't just pour on every desire, every thought you've ever had. You don't know if it's safe to do that. So there's ways you can start introducing those things and say, listen, I'm prone to splitting. I'm prone to doing this. This is what I've done in past relationships. And I don't want to do that.

anymore. And you would be surprised that when you lead with that honesty, the response you get from women, because what do women want the most? What is the most attractive thing to them? Feeling safe. So if you're honest, she's going to feel safe. And it's going to be this beautiful feedback loop where you step in one toe at a time.

love that. And when I think back, I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. The times where I didn't feel safe when they weren't honest, and I gave them the space to be honest. That was the most challenging. I'm like, I give you space. think I'm communicating or giving like an open space for you to bring all of who you are, your desires or your boundaries, your fears. So when I find out about something, then there's like, I feel a little bit betrayed because I gave you the space.

and now I don't trust you and or feel safe.

It is the weirdest thing I actually had an experience not too long ago. A gentleman that I was not exclusive with, he was a lot younger than me. But we were spending time together and it was really healing in a lot of ways because he was a lot younger. So was like I was out of a relationship and then I met him and we just had a profound physical connection to be honest that was very healing.

Kristin (16:25.057)
with a

Coral Osborne (16:48.916)
And so I said to him out of the gates, honesty and trust is like imperative for this to work. And unprovoked by me, he said on our second date, like, just let you know, I deleted Hinge and I deleted this. And I was like, first of all, I didn't say this, but I'm like, because I don't own anything. He offered this up, which I was like, OK. I didn't really say anything to him. I was like, OK. He's like, you know, I just can't talk to two women at once. And I was like.

okay, you're also 25, so you should be, sure. And then it was like a week later, I'd asked him if he'd ever had a threesome and he was like, no, but I matched with this porn star on Hinge last week and I was like, I'm sorry, what? And I just checked him right then, I was like, listen.

When you say this, my nervous system short circuits. This whole relationship, although it's not a formal relationship, is built on trust. We need to have that or else what is the point? I'm not safe to explore. I can't go there with you. So if we don't have that, we have nothing. And when I'm not even asking you for any sort of truth or interrogating you, why would you offer up a lie?

And I kind of think I've gotten to the bottom of it because it's happened more than once, happened a few times with me. And I think it's because of my experience and me being so open with that, that it does intimidate men. And I think I have inadvertently emasculated them, which is something I'm always working on. And so they feel like they need to have something to themselves. Right? They need to have some experience.

to themselves that they don't want to let me in on. for them, that represents autonomy, even though it doesn't actually. It's an illusion of autonomy. so I can totally relate to that.

Kristin (18:46.422)
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, OK, you mentioned like Hinge and dating apps too. I'm like, I want to get your thoughts on that.

I deleted it right after that.

I downloaded it because I was having a moment before I moved into my new place and met my current interest or one of them. I was like, okay, well, how am going to meet someone? like, I've just turned 37. I'm like, how am going to meet someone? They're not going to come up to my door. guess I've got to put myself out there in some ways.

and I wanted to go to this like horse riding thing that a girlfriend had posted. I was like, well, maybe I'll download and find a cute little date to go explore there and go. But then I definitely deleted it within like a week or two. was just like, I just can't. I just can't do this anymore. And I think you shared something on Instagram one time that I loved about putting yourself in new spaces or like just getting out and about as an alternative to dating apps. Or like, I would love for you to just expand on your thoughts.

I'm Ben. I'm sort of a hypocrite when it comes to this. My girlfriend is staying with me right now. She's the one that's hosting the erotic night tonight. we went to the coffee shop behind my house and I'm like, know, in sweats, messy bun, hood up. And I was joking and I was like, she's like, there's so many cute guys here. like, I know, like all it takes is for me to not work in my bed. You know, some days are from my kitchen table, actually get dressed and go to this coffee shop and like,

Coral Osborne (20:20.95)
you know, I could probably actually get asked out in real life. And she's like, why don't you do that? I'm like, I don't know. Like, it's just, it's, you know, that's the easiest thing you can do that will change your entire energetic field. And I do do things to mix it up, but it's been, it's been a lot of reprogramming because we've had to deprogram ourselves from this dating app culture, this like quick fix culture, which is an illusion.

of options that's not really there, because it's one dimensional what you're seeing on the screen, right? For me, it takes a lot for me to be interested in someone. Attraction on its own, you physical attraction does nothing for me. The older I get, the more nuanced it gets. So I really need that in-person experience to get the essence of someone. And men will say that too.

you know, they can see the hottest woman on a dating app. And since they're, you know, visual and they're single-queued, so they just need to see a pretty face, you know, a great chest or a great ass. And like, that's gonna make them swipe. Doesn't mean they're bad for it. It's just that's what they're looking for initially. That's what attracts them. Whereas women have a holistic approach, like when they're swiping, they're actually reading the profile. There's data that shows they spend

14 more seconds on average, longer reading a profile than a man does. So yeah, we shouldn't vilify one or the other. Men aren't bad for that. But yeah, putting ourselves in different settings. And for me, I had to check myself too because I'm more attracted to introverted men. I'm an extrovert, well, I'm an ambivert, but like...

If we're one-on-one or if I'm with like up to six people, I will talk over everyone, which I need to work on. But I don't like men to be like that. You know, I needed yang to my yang and this goes to lady. So that might be a traditionally like masculine trait to be more dominant in conversation. But this is why it's about polarity and not sticking, you know, to fixed masculine and feminine. So I realized since, you know, I am the more

Coral Osborne (22:40.15)
assertive, extroverted one that I probably need to start talking to men. And I'm not saying like, I once, you know, once I just mean breaking the ice and like saying hi, just saying hi or just smiling at them. Because when I'm out in public, as a lot of women are, you know, we're in our own worlds, you know, we're not making eye contact and it's all left on the guy. And that's pretty brutal, especially seeing as the last few years they've been conditioned to

not to have a rejection tolerance through apps. So we've kind of got to meet them halfway. And just by like smiling or, you know, having warm body language, holding eye contact for like three seconds, which sounds easy as hell, but it's not. But, you know, doing those nonverbal cues, takes 29 of them to actually signal interest in a way that a man will finally pick up. 29 of those subtle cues.

So it's like, do you do that or do you just bite the bullet and say, Like, is that so hard? And for some reason we think that's terrifying. But if we're asking men to stack up and ask us out in the real world, then the least we can do is drop our handkerchief. know what I mean?

I love that. Open the door a little bit. Yeah. a ribbon on the door. I love that. So you mentioned a couple of things from that. I'm like, oh, okay, I want to go maybe in that direction or this one. Because I would love to explore like polarity more because I haven't really read a lot about it or like those dynamics. And I just love what you said too about like leaving, opening them and opening the space for them to approach. And it made me think of

Like also like the Me Too, like are they a little bit more hesitant to even approach since that movement because of like not only rejection, but like, okay, how is this going to be taken or seen or read or, you know, I could see where there would be even more increased fear in that capacity. And I'm like 29 freaking clues. I'm like, I thought my one eye contact. Yeah, and I'm feeling awkward as hell.

Coral Osborne (24:51.66)
This was okay.

Coral Osborne (24:55.894)
Yeah.

Yeah. So should have a direction to go. I totally want to explore more of the polarity stuff too.

Yeah, yeah, it's, actually had, so I was on a date not too long ago and with a, with again, the same younger gentleman throwing him under the bus. But the check came and it was sitting there for like 20 minutes. And then I just was like, I just grabbed it and I paid for it. I was so passive aggressive and I was

and then I couldn't hold it in. So was like, listen, if you think that this is some Mrs. Robinson, you know, dynamic, that I'm just gonna take care of you, this is not what this is. And I got really angry. And I was like, I don't feel like a woman. I'm super dysregulated. Like my body's shutting down. I'm able to say this out loud. So that's a good thing. But I don't know how to, I didn't know how to like, alchemize it. And, you know, he was really calm.

And he said, you know, I'm just kind of confused, like, you because you brought your card out and then, you know, I just didn't want to get in the way of you paying. And we got into it and at first I was like, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. And then we got into it and it's like, this is actually a thing with a lot of women these days. And I've talked to plenty of men that I have no sort of romantic relationship with.

Coral Osborne (26:31.286)
that have given me their experiences of like being yelled at or vilified for opening a car door or, you know, picking up a check. So that does happen. It does happen. And there's a lot of mixed messaging around that, which I didn't realize how much of an effect it has on men, especially the younger generation. I think, well, millennials and

Gen Z are just very confused by it. And to be fair, we've had upwards of 12 new wave feminist movements in like the past decade. And there's been nothing for cisgender heterosexual men, right? So I understand the frustration. So there's a lot of pushback when, you know, we're hearing about trans rights, which I'm a full advocate for, but I understand

how the cisgender heterosexual man feels more repressed than anyone else out there. Right?

Mm-hmm. Interesting. And at the side note, I'm like, please open my car door.

No, I I was like, let me get this straight. Like, I never want to pay. I never want to pay. I never want to pay. I did that for years. I've paid rent for boyfriends. have done so much work to not do that. So I never want to. Please don't feel like you're ever like, you know, over giving or being too kind. No such thing with me. Please provide.

Kristin (28:03.982)
I know, but I can totally get the mixed messaging, because I have friends that, you they were on like websites, like whether it was seeking or some kind of sugar thing. But then they even had times when it came down to lunch or dinner, they're like, no, I'll pay or I've got it or their willingness to receive anything in that capacity. And I was like, wow. I'm like, you're asking or you're showing up on in certain spaces where it may be more likely to occur. But then you're shutting it down when it actually comes time to like welcome in.

Yeah, that's been really difficult for me. Actually, that's my big core wound I've been working on is my ability to receive because a lot of that stems from, I think, sex work where I call it provider privilege or escort entitlement. if, you know, everything's transactional for you, then

out in the real world when you start dating, when you're with a partner, you feel like you owe them something. And so if someone wants to be with you just for you, you're confused by it. It's very unsettling. It doesn't feel safe. And so I would be prone to overcompensating and like, my God, someone actually accepts me, so I better make it even. I better pay for this. I better do something dramatic to show them that I couldn't just sit still and receive.

But the more I know about masculinity, and I talk to a lot of men that are masculinity coaches that work a lot in this space, you know, the best gift you can give a man to really embody his masculine is receiving from him. And receiving doesn't have to be monetary. sure, that's great. And yes, they should get the check. But...

There's ways you can provide as a man that are as simple as picking a daisy from the public parking store, making dinner, driving her to an appointment to work. And I think a lot of men have conflated providership with monetary value, which I feel bad for them because they don't feel like they're ever good enough. The whole thing is men are never enough. They never feel like they're enough.

Coral Osborne (30:30.752)
and women always feel like they're too much. And both of those core beliefs get perpetuated by society and unfortunately by a lot of our past trauma in relationship.

Wow. mean, I'm like, I feel like some ahas are going off in me too, because even like, I'm like newly into this, like not even a month, like kind of courtship dating thing with my, actually I won't believe, I'll leave that detail out. Next podcast. Yeah, drop some, real men. Yeah, no, I have found, because we met in the wild, yeah, there's a piece of me sometimes where I do feel,

that, let me split this or let me get this or something. I see that coming up in my interactions with him or witnessing it. I'm like, something to ponder and go back to myself. Because in other spaces, I'm like, yeah.

Yeah, it's uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable. I was doing some deprogramming work on myself around it the other day. And because I had a tendency to choose unavailable men and not unavailable emotionally per se. That also happened, but like geographically life stage, know, newly sober startup was failing something long distance. And that was because

my father was away as a touring musician as soon as I was born. He'd be away for like six weeks at a time, four weeks at a time. And so I equated love with distance and longing and yearning. So full presence, super dysregulatory. So whenever a man has shown up for me as his authentic self and with intent, I can, it's crazy, all these revelations, I can trace this all the way back to like,

Coral Osborne (32:28.534)
elementary school and I've had the biggest crush on a boy and then as soon as he'd asked me out, which was so innocent and harmless, I would like, like almost be like repulsed and like, cause I just, I like, it didn't feel safe for me. I just, I, I, I would freak out. I would hide, you know, I would run away and that pattern became very pervasive in my adult years and I could never figure out the origin of it. Cause I have great parents.

It's taken a lot of work and it continues to take a lot of work to like, when I want to run, when I want to pay, when I want to get the check and when I don't feel okay just being, I have to take, again, the slowness. It's take a beat and sit through that discomfort.

Noted. It just had this, like, within the last couple of weeks of, like, I really like longing. Like, there's something about the longing that I that I love. And also, I've tried unavailable in all sorts of ways, whether it was prison, newly sold. That's good, you beat me. Married at certain times, although not anymore.

Emotionally all of them. like, yeah, but yeah, I was like, oh wow. It's like it's the longing I really like that yearning because dad was a truck driver growing up. I loved our relationship. Yeah, so gone. Yeah. And then I could also sense his love and affection for me, although it wasn't always voiced. yeah.

then what we do is we fill in the gaps with fantasy because I never saw my father full time. He was never a whole person. So I put him up on a pedestal. This is mirrored in the Madonna horror complex. Women have daddy issues, right? So I filled in those voids with fantasy and made up things about him where to my mom, he was a great father to me from what I saw, but to my mom, he wasn't the best partner because he wasn't there all the time.

Coral Osborne (34:27.286)
You know, he wasn't emotionally present all the time. And so, you know, we just project, right? And this, and then, you know, this shows up sexually as well because we eroticize our trauma. So to what you said about, you know, the yearning and the longing and same, you know, my favorite thing is edging. and I, it was so, it was such a crazy revelation that.

You know, it was like more, it was more fulfilling and exciting to me than the act itself a lot. Like it was like, cause I could just fantasize about it instead of experience the full presence, which was a trip. Yeah.

Wow. I'm like, is that why? Sometimes I'm like, I don't need the big O. It's so interesting. After I was writing this book and doing all kinds of things and I was reflecting and going back, was like, my God, I had so many aha moments and epiphanies and connected notes. was like, that's why I had this choice or make this, you know, have this dating like.

what is it, proclivity? When I read this book called Getting the Love You Want by like Dr. Harville Hendricks, and it talks about like how the relationship we have with our primary caregivers is oftentimes, you know, the good and bad or positive and negative traits shows up in who we're dating, how we're dating, and like repairing some kind of childhood trauma. And so whenever I was looking at someone, was like, my God, I've been trying to date my dad. And initially, like when I...

like years ago, think when I was in my early to mid 20s with someone that said daddy issues, I would have been like, no, I don't have daddy issues. I have two great dads.

Coral Osborne (36:18.584)
do the same thing. My whole thing was I had the opposite of daddy issues. Actually, it was really funny a few weeks ago for my dad's birthday, because we're still best friends. I told him, was like, so I figured out my father wound. And he's really into Jungianism, and he is a Jungian analysis, and does a lot of shadow work, and gets into, he's willing to riff on anything with me. And I sent him a Google doc of my father wound.

And he was like, yeah, but I'm like a good guy though. I'm like, yeah, but like, I mean, it's your fault. He's like, but I mean, it's your interpretation. I'm like, that's your fault. Like we were just saying, it it was actually quite funny, but he was really receptive to like acknowledging it.

Yeah, I'm like, I, my dad died. I'm like, I wonder if he would be open and receptive to that now. Although I've had some interesting encounters with him in like psychedelic spaces. I did a ketamine series and like his inner child or younger child was dancing with mine and we had this beautiful like encounter and what I call my ketamine oracle space. Yeah. Yeah. Like where am I? And so we...

I know, well.

Kristin (37:31.062)
And we had this moment, I'm like, am I supposed to like feel it all? Or he's like, yeah, sorry about that. And he's like, I've been here the whole time. You can always ask for like my guidance or assistance or help. And I was like, wow, it's just interesting. But yeah, when my mom read my book, she's like, I feel like I damaged you or did it. I'm like, well. Yes and no. Like, yes, but I don't know what parent didn't make a formative impression on their kids.

I don't see you. was like, really, it's about my daddy wounds or my father wounds. and I didn't really position you or, you know, in my mind as like the source of all my trauma.

It's so funny, I was the opposite. I made my mom bad for many years and my mom came from a lot of trauma, sexual abuse, and her father took his life when she was a child. And she kind of became the parent to her mother and to her younger sister. And she became a social worker and then worked with street level.

sex workers, right? So her view on sex and sex work was very, very skewed. And so I rebelled. So again, if we go back to like the mirroring of the Madonna whore, I did that to myself. Like women can also have that split within themselves.

interesting. Yeah, I'm like, now I need to go back. Yeah, because I'm like, or yeah, in certain spaces, I can probably sense myself showing up as one or the other.

Coral Osborne (39:05.838)
and I would find evidence to do that. You know, I still catch myself sometimes if I'm, you know, had a couple drinks and I'm at a dinner table and I go into this condition of like, I'm just gonna be the whore by making this vulgar joke because it's safer for me to do that than to just like sit in silence and be seen. Or, you know, be overly flirtatious or seductive because that's a protective mechanism.

Mm-hmm, like the humor deflecting.

Yeah, and then I'm like, why doesn't anyone see the Madonna in me? Because I'm not even letting them.

Yeah, and maybe they will if you just allow them to just see. Yeah. Yeah. It's a potent reminder. was like, yeah, what do we call them when Donahoe on the female side? But it's the same.

Yeah.

Coral Osborne (39:50.912)
I mean, I'm going at the same. Yeah.

Yeah, I know it's very interesting. I'm curious, I'll kind of connect these two things. We have about 10 minutes left. About, you posted something the other day, and since I guess a lot of them stem from like the Madonna horror complex, but about a lot of the common sexual struggles that men are encountering today. And you listed four, I'd love to get your insight or take on some of those common struggles or like how to navigate or how to...

unpack some of the layers or what do you suggest in that capacity. Is it going back to the Madonna horror?

Yeah, I mean, sexual issues are physiological and psychological, right? So we have to look at them holistically. It's usually a both and. And if you go to traditional sex therapists or doctors, they usually just treat the singular issue, which isn't actually treating it, right? So common issues are performance anxiety, erectile dysfunction,

delayed ejaculation, premature ejaculation, suppressed and repressed desires, shame around sex. And a lot of those are intertwined. If we're looking at something like erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation, trouble staying hard, then we always want to look at the physiological components first. So nerve functioning,

Coral Osborne (41:27.534)
hormone levels, you know, the physicality of all of that before we then go to looking at the psychological elements. So we want to do like a whole holistic intake. But strangely, the same methods that are used for treating like say premature ejaculation are used for treating delayed ejaculation. So it's all about getting into the body.

and mindful self-pleasure practices and somatic awareness. So men are raised as little boys to experience pleasure one way. Like when they're, when they first start discovering masturbating, what are they doing? They're masturbating like really quickly, cause they're afraid mom's gonna walk in. It's like this one note wonder. And mom usually probably did walk in at some point. So then they associate that with high,

anxiety, nerves, excitement, and again, we eroticize our trauma. So then that high anxiety state is conflated with arousal. So then later on in life with partnership, it's like we're only experiencing sex in one way. And that's just not how it plays out. That's why a lot of men lose interest in partners and start to numb out or over sensitize because they don't have

an erotic lexicon. There's so much more available to them. So to really get familiar with other types of touch, other types of sensation and track your arousal. Like I have my male clients keep an arousal tracker. And so on a daily basis, like what are they aroused by and what are the feelings behind that? What do you notice? What are the judgments that come up? And then we dig into it because some of those arousal points are benign.

They just are what they are and that's fine. And others have a deeper meaning.

Kristin (43:31.406)
That's fascinating. I think that's such a good tool and takeaway. I'm like, even for myself now. Yeah, I'm like, I want to explore this. You mentioned the different types of touch. That's been something I've loved and loving so much of the sensual lately. And probably not even lately, but.

It's great for men, Yeah, yeah.

Kristin (43:49.966)
more when I can dial it back, I'm like, oh, okay. But yeah, like exploring like the different types of touch, like the different element styles, like whether I'm like, do I like soft and slow? Do I like the fiery and scratchy? Do I like grounding, earthy? Totally.

And just taught me all about that at her workshop the other week, the seven layers. And I knew them, but I didn't have words for them. So I was like, I'm going to totally incorporate that into my framework. And it's so awesome. Because again, that's expanding your pleasure, your erotic landscape. There's so much more available to you than you're even aware of. And to also tie that into the erotic blueprint, great tool to use. I love using that even for when I meet a new

a potential partner before you engage in any sort of sexual activity. Like if you send them the erotic blueprint test, first of all, you're gonna see if they opt into it. if you want them to yes and you, you you want them to agree and escalate with you and see if they can opt in. And then it also tells you like if you're compatible and where you're aligned and where there might be some misunderstandings. So you can go into it with like a framework.

But it's really interesting because I started off when I first took that test, was number one energetic, still am. And then shapeshifter and then kinky and then sexual. think my last one was sensual. And then I had a very, very sensual partner and I always used to knock sensuality. Like I thought it was lame. Like I was like, like soft jazz music and less bubble baths, like boring. I want dirty primal profane. And then I had this

a lover that was just transformed my view on that. And he really caused me to be present in my body and slowed me down. So I was introduced to so many other erogenous zones and sensation and it was extremely transcendent. So now my second is sensual and his first is energetic. so it's really interesting to see how they interplay.

Kristin (45:55.214)
Yeah, no, I've been meaning to send my new interest, the erotic quiz. I'm like, curious. I'm like, where are we? We shared some sexiest moments that happened to us last night. We were just having a conversation. like, oh, tell me some past encounters. yeah. And use that language. But yeah, was like, oh, OK, I'm curious. And I'm like, I want to peek behind the curtain a little more. I totally think you'd be open to it. OK, so I'm like, arouse a tracker.

Corerotic blueprint. I just started reading the robotic mind. I mean, I'm like only a couple of chapters in. I will.

Okay.

You gotta talk to me when you think that. Yeah. Do you talk to like any, any, you know, one in the space, like when, you know, you talk to Leola or Kimi or any of my colleagues, it's like, what was one of the books that changed your life and brought you to this work? was like The Erotic Mind. Wow. Okay, yes.

Pumping that back up in the queue. I tend to have like book ADD, so like sometimes I'm reading this and this and a physical copy of this and something on my Kindle. So do Need to just like own in and finish something. I love everything that you brought here today. There's something else that you mentioned, but now I'm having a little brain fart about it. If it's gone, it's gone. And I'm like, oh, Kimmy Singh. I was gonna try to go to that, but it was sold out. So yeah, maybe catch that on the next one.

Coral Osborne (47:18.55)
demand that woman.

I would love for you to share like anything that you got cooking or that you want to share. Just got a couple more minutes left about if there's anything that you want to just express now to have the space we haven't covered and then also like how to connect with you any other like programs or events you have coming up all that jazz.

Yeah. So I just finally launched my website 2.0, CoralOsborne.com. And every month at the top of the month, I give away five coaching sessions, completely free, no commitment required to the first five men that respond. And I give them a tool that they can walk away from that session with for any of those issues that we mentioned everything from, you know,

performance anxiety to erectile dysfunction, to premature ejaculation, to desire discrepancy, to shame around sex. This tool can be used across the board. And then I'm launching my podcast next month called The Next Man Up. And it's me talking to a bunch of dudes about the paradoxes of masculinity and the misconceptions around masculinity and sexuality. And that's,

been part and parcel with my own exploration of, you there's so much more left to learn for me. So yeah, that's what I have coming up. And then on the event section on my website, you can almost see where I'm going to be speaking, what kind of events I'm going to be hosting, which are usually between here and Austin or New York and LA.

Kristin (48:52.686)
Cool. I'm so excited. Thank you for coming on. I feel like I could peek behind the curtain with you so much more. Like there's like so many, like, had like two or three pages. I'd have to you come back on whenever you're back in town or something.

That's how you know it's a good conversation though, because you just like are able to riff on those top like three points.

Well, so good. And thank you guys for tuning in. Stay in touch for next week. Can't think of the top of my head. Actually, it's going to be a comedian. So we'll dive into that area of self-exploration and expression. And check out Coral. And I'll put all of her show notes and, I mean, links in the show notes. Or my assistant, Telswell. Thank you. Thank you. Cool.