65. Soulful Sexuality: Healing From Religious Trauma & Embracing Authenticity with Ann Russo

Purity culture, religious trauma, and societal expectations have shaped how we view sexuality and relationships. Ann Russo joins us this week to challenge these narratives, exploring self-discovery, non-monogamy, and the power of authenticity. They discuss the impact of shame, the healing potential of kink and BDSM, and the importance of consent and self-love. 

About Ann Russo:
She is a mental health professional, author, and advocate focused on sex positivity, queer issues, and religious trauma. She provides training, consulting, and publications to enhance mental health care. Her CE courses, pending ASWB/ACE approval, cover ethical non-monogamy, sexual health, PTSD healing, sex work, kink, BDSM, and more for social workers, MFTs, and APCCs.

Jump to the mic drop moments....
0:00 Intro
10:17 Exploring Non-Monogamy and Jealousy
22:37 The Role of Sexuality in Friendships
29:55 Reclaiming Pleasure and Body Awareness
37:10 Exploring Kink and BDSM as Healing

Connect with Ann:
IG: @annrussolcsw
Websites:
https://www.annrusso.org/
https://empathyfirm.com/ann-russo/

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 10:17 Exploring Non-Monogamy and Jealousy
• 22:37 The Role of Sexuality in Friendships
• 29:55 Reclaiming Pleasure and Body Awareness
• 37:10 Exploring Kink and BDSM as Healing

Transcript

Kristin (00:01.201)
So I have been looking forward to this conversation with Anne Russo since she appeared magically in my inbox and I love how that can sometimes happen. She is an expert on human sexuality and mental health and I'll include all of her fabulous notes in the show notes. But before we dive in,

Ann Russo She/her (00:03.822)
Yes, yes.

Kristin (00:29.107)
I mean, like this is like a little bit self-serving, but I know it can serve a lot of my audience too. It's just like I grew up in the Bible Belt and so like a very conservative, southern background. And I would love to expand and explore on religious trauma and maybe start even by like, how do you define religious trauma or like what that is?

Ann Russo She/her (00:50.024)
Sure, sure. So religious trauma is a little bit different than other kinds of trauma because it really does impact your entire worldview. There's an existential crisis that takes place within self, the idea of, you know, heaven or hell and just how the level of impact is through every facet of your being.

Kristin (01:07.133)
Mmm.

Kristin (01:17.683)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (01:18.838)
Right? So, and it can fix your support systems. It affects your relationships, your work, how you view yourself. And you're having a trauma reaction, which would be like a PTSD reaction where it impacts depression, anxiety, your body, your nervous system. And again, like that self-worth. I want to bring that up again, because that's a huge piece that we kind of forget about.

Kristin (01:46.771)
Yeah, that's very interesting because I do remember or have some like the memories of like when my new age stepfather kind of came into the picture, I shared some of his philosophy with some girls riding on the bus and they're like, I thought they're gonna be excited about the possibilities as I was and they're like, we need to pray for you, you're gonna go to hell. And I was like, what do you mean? Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (02:08.814)
Yeah.

And just exactly like the way that your peers relate to you as well. how, and again, like, them, right? So like your experience and immediate rejection of something different, something, you know, and that rejection does what it keeps you in that same space without asking, necessarily asking questions or conforming and then that self-worth piece. So it's like, it stems every aspect of your experience as a human.

Kristin (02:16.327)
Mm-hmm. Mmm.

Kristin (02:23.293)
Yeah.

Kristin (02:40.285)
yeah, yeah, I I feel like I'm still unpacking a lot of it 20 years later. Yeah, yeah. And so I, you know, I came into I went through a guided ketamine therapy session. And there was one session I came out of it. I did like an eight series, eight kind of series. And there was something that came out of it that I was like, something about Wild Woman.

Something about wild woman, like I had been suppressing my wild woman. I guess like that good girl conditioning is can that come into play with like I guess the religious trauma?

Ann Russo She/her (03:16.646)
absolutely, the purity culture, especially around more of the Southern Baptist fundamentalist evangelical belief systems and the way that the purity culture was really pushing like the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s.

Kristin (03:18.833)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (03:32.872)
There was such like, I don't know if you experienced this in your but the purity rings and the purity necklace and like all of those things are going to impact your view of yourself as a female in your own sexuality.

Kristin (03:45.575)
You know, I didn't personally, but I do recall some peers growing up that were like saving themselves for marriage. And I just kind of knew I would have always been a rebel. So was like, that ain't for me. I might hide it from you. Yeah, like I don't feel, yeah, there, you know, it wasn't talked about. I had to watch scrambled Skinamax or HBO listen for footsteps down the hallway. So it was very much like fin for sale or, you know, hear information about it from an older boy on the bus like.

Ann Russo She/her (03:53.518)
Thank

Ann Russo She/her (03:58.261)
it yeah.

Kristin (04:14.373)
Is that the way to discover a masturbation and then hide it or self pleasure in some ways? Like, so it's very like formative. And I was curious about like a potential overactive response and an underactive response and how one even begins to unpack that either solo or with a practitioner too.

Ann Russo She/her (04:35.062)
I think that, you know, I'm not 100 % clear on the research of why this happens. I may have at one point and I've since forgotten, but that does tend to be the case that if someone will remain very strict in adherence in their faith and some will really rebel against their parents and their upbringing.

It does tend to be those two extremes that happen. I personally, with the clients that I've worked with, I don't think either one of those extremes is necessarily authentic to the person. They're both kind of a reaction or the effect. Like, this happened, so now I do this. So it's like working with people, it's, let's help you unpack who you actually are and how you really feel and what your values and morals are.

Kristin (04:59.603)
Mm.

Kristin (05:08.787)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm

Kristin (05:21.351)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (05:24.928)
regarding your own sexuality and sex.

Kristin (05:25.107)
Mmm.

Yeah, so it sounds like a very explorative process. Are there any questions that you suggest starting with, the, in that realm?

Ann Russo She/her (05:37.41)
Yes, yes. So I would definitely suggest that when you have a specific feeling or thought come up around sex or sexuality, ask yourself where that came from. With that first level of like, well, this is, know, like we can even say monogamy is the only way to have a relationship, right? Well, where that, why do you believe that?

Kristin (05:47.923)
Mm.

Ann Russo She/her (06:03.916)
Where did that come from? Who told you that? Where was this modeled? How did you learn this? Then it's like, once you kind of do that, then you kind of discuss, okay, does this actually make sense for me? Why does it make sense for me? How do I practice this? And I'm not saying whether it is or isn't right for the person, but it's just a matter of like understanding self.

Kristin (06:13.861)
Mm.

Kristin (06:25.331)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (06:25.582)
Because I think that there's a pattern of how to participate in sexuality and sex and relationships. It doesn't really work for a lot of people, but no one's discussing it. They're just, this is the way you're supposed to do it, right? And it's harmful in the end of the day.

Kristin (06:37.115)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (06:43.207)
Yeah, yeah, living lives by other people's rules that you may or may not have known that you took on. Yeah, no, I feel very lucky that at an early age, my stepdad, I asked something about, you know, at one point we weren't going to church anymore. I was like, why are we not going? And he pulled up this map of religion on the screen and he's like, you likely only believe what you grew up around. And then it was like a big.

Ann Russo She/her (06:49.086)
Yeah, exactly. And we don't. We don't know.

Kristin (07:09.235)
Like, do you, if I only believe what I grew up around and that this pertains to religion, then what else does that pertain to? Like everything. And so, which I guess, you know, that can be scary or fear inducing in some ways if like everything you've ever believed is suddenly like challenged, but it also could be open and something to explore and adventure kind of way.

Ann Russo She/her (07:16.353)
everything.

Ann Russo She/her (07:34.848)
And you're exactly it's very, scary. Right. And I think that's why we'll see, especially in more of fundamentalist belief system.

Kristin (07:37.693)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (07:44.448)
that everything has to line up perfectly. Like even if you have to fight something that is very clearly a thing, like the earth is older than 160 years old. But it's like, no, we're going to do whatever we can to show you that that's not true. I don't know what that has to do with God exactly, but I know that it's like, the Bible says this, so this must mean. And it's like one thing falls apart, everything falls apart. And I could see how that could be very scary. Right.

Kristin (08:12.253)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (08:14.946)
But with that being said, life begins at the edge of your comfort zone, as Robert Walsh would say, right? So it's like, go ahead and like, don't be afraid to start to question things. It's not easy. And maybe you you need to do it with a therapist or friends or support, which is understandable. But I think you will find a happier, more peaceful existence because it's authentic, you know?

Kristin (08:20.179)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (08:42.099)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think authenticity is so key. Something I value. I think my therapist mentioned in a session one time, she's like, I'm not saying, you know, not saying this exactly, but she's brought up like high masking autism in women. And I was like, okay, interesting. And I think she was even like referencing herself potentially, but it just definitely like.

Ann Russo She/her (08:46.498)
Yes.

Kristin (09:09.715)
I definitely resonated because there was a clear distinction in a moment in my life where I was like, okay, well, this is an opportunity to be a new me or be one that is liked, loved and accepted. And I guess whenever that good girl defaulted, I defaulted to like that neural pathway set. And so, and then had to create some new ones for my wild woman that I'm unleashing. Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (09:34.04)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like you said, it's a neural pathway. So something may feel right to you, but it doesn't necessarily make it right. You know, like we have to, it's difficult. We have to kind of look like, how is this behavior serving me, serving others?

positives and negatives here if I can look at this kind of objectively what does this actually look like? Right, because we, yeah, the pathways are very powerful.

Kristin (10:05.043)
Yeah. And like making, um, like choices based on kind of like gauging the consequences, negative or positive of like our actions or thoughts or, um, that sort of thing. I know you mentioned, uh, monogamy too, and it's something that I would love to touch on as well. Cause that totally, that was like the one and only choice. I didn't even know what polyamory was until I was in college or that it was an option or.

open that I think once I discovered it, there was a lot of freedom within it. And I've kind of vacillated back and forth. And I know some of my listeners have as well between or just like experimenting and trying things on. yeah, was like, I've got so much love in my heart to give. Like, how can I expect one person to fulfill all of my needs if I like, you know, men, women, androgynous, anything in the LGBTQ community?

Ann Russo She/her (10:41.613)
First.

Ann Russo She/her (10:56.846)
Exactly. Yeah.

Kristin (10:59.991)
So, then how, so I guess the question I have is I saw something that mentioned in a different thing you're featured on about addressing jealousy and open relating and if there's any tips for navigating that or communication if someone is curious about exploring polyamory or open relationships or ethical non-monogamy.

Ann Russo She/her (11:23.352)
Sure. So if you're interested, I'd like to tackle that one first. It's really important to understand why. You know, and I'm not placing a judgment on why someone chooses.

Kristin (11:31.763)
Mm.

Ann Russo She/her (11:37.186)
But if you're in a relationship that you want to stay in and you're approaching opening up your relationship because there's something wrong in the relationship you're in, I would suggest not opening up your relationship at that point because it's not really going to help your relationship if you're trying to fix something internally. Now that also means that there might be other situations where

Kristin (11:56.039)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (12:03.79)
Maybe you want to open up your relationship because you have, let's say you have like no sex drive and your partner has a very high sex drive. And maybe you're like, you know, let's talk about what this could look like. So we're both getting our needs met. That's, that's different, right? Then like the inability to communicate or feeling unhappy with your partner. So I want to open it up. Does that make sense with the difference?

Kristin (12:16.937)
Mm-hmm

Kristin (12:23.207)
Mm-hmm.

for sure. A tantra teacher of mine the other day mentioned something. She's like, maybe there's a desire that one wants to explore and one is okay with bringing in a sex worker or like to have that need met or that desire fulfilled but doesn't necessarily want to do it themselves. And I can also see how there's like shadowy or challenging aspects for all relating because I know at one point I questioned like, okay,

Ann Russo She/her (12:45.964)
Yes.

Kristin (12:55.283)
do I just, do I have commitment issues? Is that why? So I was like, I like to, you know, just try on, you know, look at different lenses and questions like, is it the big heart? Is it commitment? Is it? Yeah, like I think that, you know, goes back to your point on like getting curious about the why or where it's coming from.

Ann Russo She/her (13:09.006)
What is it? Right?

Ann Russo She/her (13:16.32)
And coming back to that authentically you, right? We're given these messages. If you don't do this, this, and this, something is intrinsically wrong with you. You can't keep a relationship. You can't do this. You can't do that. And those messages are really damaging. Obviously, monogamy in the way that we practice it here in the US doesn't work for a lot of people, or there wouldn't be a divorce rate. Something's not working.

Kristin (13:26.407)
Mmm.

Kristin (13:39.091)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (13:46.224)
What I would say is non-monogamy comes in so many different forms. And what I really appreciate about it is you are starting from scratch, in a sense.

So you can read about different ways people participate in non-monogamy, but you're really formulating what makes sense for you and for your partner, partners, people that you're casually dating, whatever that might look like. The only thing that I would suggest to be able to do is understand your needs and wants and be able to communicate those things clearly. And if you are su-

This is where I see people get in trouble. There's an assumption that the other person might change their mind about something. And they're not clearly communicating like, well, she says she wants to do this now, but maybe that will change. If you're feeling that way internally, not good. is what's being presented to me. This is how I feel. This is how you feel. Does this make sense? Not easy to do.

Kristin (14:53.469)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (14:57.642)
Some of my clients, I had a group for people that were just beginning to open up their relationship. And one of the participants said, this is the most amount of work I've ever had to do on myself. Because she had to understand who she was, what she wanted, how that would actually play out, what are her boundaries, where does the jealousy coming from? Why is that getting triggered? So there was just a lot, there's a lot of moving pieces. It is a lot of work.

Kristin (15:06.995)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Kristin (15:26.055)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (15:28.098)
But I think you have the thing that we don't necessarily realize is there's a really high satisfaction rate when it does work. People feel empowered to exist as themselves authentically. Yeah, yeah.

Kristin (15:36.509)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (15:43.045)
Mm-hmm. A lot of liberation. Yeah, I do have to say, sometimes my desires or what I want evolves over time. what I may, but I can communicate that. Okay, but I'm like, I do change, like, yeah. Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (15:52.162)
Yes.

Exactly. No, but you can communicate. Exactly. That's the key. Like, it's really hard to believe that 15, you feel this way. 25, you feel the exact same way. 35, you feel the exact Like, you're not. You're going to grow. You're going to change. You're going to have different experiences. So if you're just continuously having communication. A friend of mine had a partner and every Sunday night,

Kristin (16:06.067)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (16:23.842)
They'd see each other once a month for the weekend and every Sunday when they're wrapping up, they'd sit out together, they'd have coffee. Is this still working for you? What's working? Is there anything not working? What should we talk about every time? And they've been together for years. And their relationship does change and evolve and their other relationships change and evolve too, but everyone's knowing what's going on the whole time.

Kristin (16:48.883)
So there's no like question or like question. I know if I have the space, sometimes my mind can, you know, create stories that aren't exist, you know, aren't true or grounded in truth or resonant. It's just a lack of communication or information.

Ann Russo She/her (17:07.648)
And it is a very normal feeling of jealousy is normal. And I think that there might be an assumption that if you're doing this right, you don't have jealousy. That's not really the human experience. Humans get jealous. I mean, even think back to when we were kids and like you had a best friend and now she has a new best friend and you're like so jealous and upset. mean, like that's just how we're kind of built. Right? So it's, it's not a matter of

trying to pretend like you're not jealous, that's how you deal with it.

Kristin (17:40.765)
Yeah, guess you could ask for more support.

communication or some extra TLC or something if that will help you feel better if you're feeling jealous.

Ann Russo She/her (17:51.158)
Yeah, and you work like, it might be, look, when you, I know you go on your date Friday night, it really means a lot to me for you to call me Saturday afternoon. Does that work for you? Great.

Kristin (18:00.371)
Hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (18:05.134)
Oh, it doesn't work for you. Okay, when would it work for you? Okay, Saturday night. Awesome. So now I'm going to figure out what I can do Saturdays to help me with my jealousy. How can I self soothe with knowing I'm going to get this phone call, but not like staring at my cell phone the whole Saturday, right? Well, so yeah, so like, you know how to do this, you know, and you become more secure in your own self too, in what you're doing and living your own life.

Kristin (18:08.551)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (18:23.801)
Yeah, yeah, waiting for it to come.

Kristin (18:34.161)
Yeah, I like that. It reminds me of a girlfriend of mine who said, I was kind of, you questioning. I like, I love y'all's, you know, relationship dynamic. What's the secret sauce that y'all are using? And she said, well, we create our own. We don't really allow that, you know, society to call or label it one or the other. But we have like three-month or six-month containers where we're like, we're going to try.

this, this three to six months. Like have a, you know, we're going to be monogamous or monogamish or we're going to invite other people into our relationship for three to six months and kind of create like our own customized dynamic versus just trying to think fit into something else.

Ann Russo She/her (19:17.822)
Yes, yes, it's all about the communication and honoring yourself and honoring the people that you're involved with. You know, because I can think back, you know, maybe before it was popular out in the world in the same way. Non-monogamy really looked like a heterosexual partner trying to find a woman to be in the relationship. Like that was such the common way to do it. And it really was very disregarding, even of that third person.

Kristin (19:24.71)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (19:46.568)
And now, and I see this a lot in the movement, is every single person involved is as equally as important. So everyone's emotional well-being, mental well-being, you know what I mean? So it's like, there's not like, well, this isn't working for me. OK, well, let's just dump her. You know what I mean? It's like everyone matters in the equation. And I think that that's really an important transition that is taking place.

Kristin (19:55.037)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (19:59.922)
Mm-hmm

Kristin (20:13.779)
Yeah, that kind of brings tears to my eyes as it's like from a personal navigation. So being the person that's being introduced into a relationship, I'm like, like that consideration too.

Ann Russo She/her (20:27.182)
And you 100,000 % should have it. And if people are not able to do that, then they should not be opening up their relationship. I'm sorry. I just really believe we like, everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. So yeah. And I think that, yeah, you can't treat people like.

Kristin (20:32.922)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (20:39.56)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (20:44.573)
Mm-hmm.

I agree. Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (20:52.022)
like play things. If you want to have a one night stand or you want to see what this is about, there's other ways to go about it. You can do that. There's clubs and there's all kinds of explore, right? before like, there's so many things to explore. So whatever you're looking for is out there, but just be considerate of all the people involved.

Kristin (20:54.355)
Mmm.

Kristin (20:59.634)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (21:03.409)
yeah, for sure. Websites, clubs. Yeah.

Kristin (21:16.837)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was talking to a woman that I met at this retreat too and she's Polly and she was, I was asking, I like, because I'm like, I'm curious. I don't really know the language or that sort of thing. And in this, well, cause she's living or has multiple relationships. And I was like, so it is one like your primary partner. And she said, she's like, well, I don't like to hierarchy the relationships or put that. I was like, I was like that. I'm like, I haven't heard that yet. So I'm like, thank you.

Ann Russo She/her (21:40.322)
Thank

Kristin (21:46.515)
Because I like that perspective too.

Ann Russo She/her (21:47.502)
Yeah, isn't that neat though? Like it really is like there is no correct way to define this. It's like monogamy and then everything else. Because it's there's so many ways to have relationships. Like I always think about our friendships.

Kristin (21:50.833)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (21:56.369)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (22:00.327)
Yeah.

Kristin (22:10.631)
Hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (22:10.668)
and how we love our friends and how we get different things out of those relationships and what does that mean and why is that okay? I think a lot about these things like what's people's emotional capacity? Why if there is a sexual component involved, we become different? And what does a romantic component mean to like a best friend component? Like what do all these things mean to people?

Kristin (22:26.323)
Mmm. Mmm.

Kristin (22:35.357)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (22:37.216)
You know, and I mean, I have no idea what the answers are. I think they mean different things to different people, and I think that's great. But I think we have to ask ourselves those important questions.

Kristin (22:41.608)
Yeah.

Or like I get or maybe even just like the amount of value placed on like the relationships that we are having sex in versus like the friendships. I love my friendships. And I've been way more successful at my friendships if you just look at it from a longevity standpoint.

Ann Russo She/her (22:55.638)
Yes,

Ann Russo She/her (23:03.438)
Nice. I think that's true. know, it's funny, I went to a training, it was awesome. And it focused a lot. It was a training about sex and sexuality and it focused a lot on women. And

biologically speaking, it actually makes the most sense for women to have sexual relationships with their friends. Like, come on, run up, like, you're saying we should sleep with our friends. And she's like, that's exactly what I'm saying. Because women are very connected through emotion and safety and security. This within the friendships. This is interesting, because it's like kind of put things on his head a little bit, you know, but biologically speaking, that's actually what makes sense for women.

Kristin (23:22.803)
Mmm.

Kristin (23:33.875)
Hmm

Mmm.

Kristin (23:41.458)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting. I was doing something right in my 20s then. Or actually way younger than that if I'm gonna get real honest. There was a lot of sexual exploration and curiosity with my friends when we were really young. But of course hidden or more in the taboo, especially, I don't know if that's our location or where we're from or is it, how much of it was impacted by our environment.

Ann Russo She/her (23:47.104)
Yeah, exactly. Incredible.

Ann Russo She/her (24:00.076)
Yeah.

Kristin (24:14.365)
And then how much is it a natural like curiosity as like going into young tween and teen and adulthood? I don't know.

Ann Russo She/her (24:21.454)
For sure. I it is completely natural. Like we are sexual beings. We have sexuality when we're children. Now I'm not saying go have sex necessarily or like there's age appropriate things, but we are sexual beings. But I think depending on where you are, you're gonna get a different message around that. Right? So, I mean.

Kristin (24:36.221)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (24:41.053)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (24:45.619)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (24:49.226)
I grew up in a family that was more open sexually, so I didn't view sex as something bad, something negative, you know. Society sends a different message, but my household was like that.

Kristin (24:57.693)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (25:06.036)
So I didn't have that feeling like this is a wrong or bad thing or against God. You know, and I know that that's something that people do struggle with and then they bring that into their adulthood and into their sexual experiences and adulthood as well.

Kristin (25:10.241)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kristin (25:19.539)
Did that influence your decision to go into this realm and space?

Ann Russo She/her (25:27.522)
Yeah, yeah, it definitely did because I grew up in a polyamorous household queer household and It was men and my mom and I saw men's sexuality, which is very different than women's sexuality really very very different, you know and

Kristin (25:45.137)
Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (25:50.136)
I had to figure out like, okay, what does it mean for me? Like I'm not built quite like this. This doesn't really make sense for me, but this doesn't make sense for me either. So I had to like figure myself out in a really different way than I think many people do, because it was non-traditional. And then I saw like all this damage that was done through us.

Kristin (26:04.827)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (26:14.134)
unfortunately through religion, through culture and the way that like sex and sexuality is demonized so much and it's such a natural part of us and the damage that that really does to our mental health and our well-being is actually fairly significant.

Kristin (26:16.103)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (26:20.7)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (26:29.219)
yeah, for sure. mean, like the first thing that comes up is like the shame and their desires or wanting to explore something and or live or living an unexpressed life or if you do live it, then you have the shame attached to it. Is there anything that, how does one begin like unpacking or releasing that shame or what do you suggest?

Ann Russo She/her (26:33.293)
Yes.

Ann Russo She/her (26:56.13)
first to know that it's not necessarily coming from your head anymore. You like you and sit here and talk and, you know, if we had that experience but we're...

Kristin (26:59.985)
Hmm

Ann Russo She/her (27:07.552)
Logically saying no, that's not true. I don't believe this anymore. I believe this The shame can still live very much in your body and I can in it that shame can say there's something actually wrong with me You feel it. Maybe you tense up feel anxious you feel guilty When you have sex like that, you know, like you can keep telling yourself something here But your body's telling you something different and that is a trauma response as well so some of the things to work through on that is actually

Kristin (27:15.125)
Mmm.

Kristin (27:20.115)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (27:38.596)
Exposure therapy with your own body like depending on where you are, know, I as I work with individual people there are different stages of this but in general I'd say like getting comfortable with your own body Being able to masturbate being able to look at yourself naked You know without shame it may not even be about you having a sexual relationship with another person

Kristin (27:47.271)
Mm-hmm

Kristin (27:56.679)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (28:04.494)
It may be about having a sexual relationship with yourself and feeling comfortable there and doing other types of exercises to release the pressure on your nervous system. might like, I know this sounds like so Instagram, but like breathing exercises. But truly though, like because those things are meant to help decrease the stress in your nervous system. And that's what's everything going on in your body. So you have to do things to help.

Kristin (28:07.827)
Yeah.

Kristin (28:15.855)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (28:20.403)
Yeah.

Kristin (28:28.925)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (28:33.612)
release that tension in your body. Thinking isn't going to do it.

Kristin (28:37.894)
Oh, yeah, no, I get it. I think that, you know, after I did like a yoga teacher training, was like the first time that like I felt graceful touch against my skin was like when my finger is like a coming home of sorts. And and I also like advocate for like the self-pleasure for me. And since I'm like, I will not fake an orgasm now, you know, so it's like I need to know how my body, how I respond and like how

Ann Russo She/her (28:50.486)
Yeah.

Kristin (29:04.657)
I can make myself orgasm because then I'm like how can I expect someone to make me orgasm if I can't experience that with myself?

Ann Russo She/her (29:13.44)
Exactly. that, and again, like kind of talking about what I was mentioning earlier, is there's such a need for that safety and security to take place in your mind before your body can even orgasm.

Kristin (29:20.403)
Mmm.

Kristin (29:26.095)
Hmm. Yeah, a lot of times I've noticed within myself and then have heard feedback from some friends that it's helped to just remove the goal of orgasm and just like, or just like have pleasure and like whether that's, you know, a piece of chocolate one day or like, you know, sensual touch or like, I like a lot of like grounding touch or like, or like soothing, like rubbing on my upper back or shoulders. I'm going to do self-touch.

Ann Russo She/her (29:35.894)
Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (29:52.47)
Yeah.

Kristin (29:52.895)
And I was, it's so interesting that you brought that body element up too, because I totally agree that, I'm like, it's all connected and like the body keeps the score. And so I was like curious about your thoughts on like pleasure and body work as treatment for that trauma, like assisting with the inner work and the mental health aspect.

Ann Russo She/her (30:01.336)
Yes, yes.

Ann Russo She/her (30:15.606)
Yes, 100%. I believe that 100%. And you know, it's interesting because the pleasure, I had a client once and I really just love that she said this to me because I'm always talking about like authenticity and enthusiastic consent. And she says, you know, I need to give enthusiastic consent is for me to experience pleasure.

Kristin (30:39.859)
Hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (30:41.494)
It's like, it's okay for me to experience pleasure. So it wasn't about, you know, saying yes to something that she didn't really want to say yes to. It was about saying yes to something she didn't want to say yes to, but felt shame around it or that she didn't deserve the pleasure. Right? So it shows up in all kinds of different ways.

Kristin (30:55.687)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (30:59.955)
Oh yeah, mean even some of the like token term about guilty pleasure. was like, well, why would we even associate guilt with our pleasure? Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (31:06.446)
that's such a terrible term. haven't... But really it is.

Kristin (31:11.827)
And like the power of language is pretty profound. So I'm like, I don't want to associate those two or ingrain that guilt while I'm having the pleasure.

Ann Russo She/her (31:15.06)
Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Ann Russo She/her (31:21.684)
Exactly, exactly. mean, we, our bodies are built for this. We are created. This is how we're created. So it's interesting to me that church has taught since its inception, really, that

Pleasure is bad and female pleasure is the devil itself. You know, I did a lot of research on a book I was writing on female sexuality and sexual empowerment. And I mean, you go back to the original writings of like the founder, the church fathers from, you know, like zero to, actually, this is more like around 100, 150 when they're really starting to formulate the faith.

Kristin (31:43.719)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (32:05.914)
you can see their writings and these women are garbage on the ground, less than garbage on the ground. are literally, they are made to make men stumble and you just gotta read it. You wouldn't even believe it. Like it's, so it's like from the inception of the church, women and women's sexuality has been demonized.

Kristin (32:21.224)
Wow.

Kristin (32:30.355)
wonder if that's because they know there's so much power there. And I mean, and they can also, and I feel like it all comes down to like intention too. Like that power can be used for good and just like constructive or destructive. But yeah, like how can we manipulate the masses?

Ann Russo She/her (32:44.386)
Absolutely.

Ann Russo She/her (32:48.814)
Not totally, but women have always been the abused or the marginalized. mean, everything from the beginning of the female, the way that female sexuality is viewed to natural women who naturally healed and people that practicing earth medicine. I mean, it's like just the destruction of women as a really serious issue within the church.

Kristin (33:09.139)
Mm-hmm.

Wow. And you know, that makes me think about genetics too, because I read somewhere, don't know if it was in Body Keeps Score or some other book, but about how like I'm an egg in my mom or in my grandmother's room. So if I just think about that going all the way back to that. how coded is it in our DNA and genetics to have those, you know, thoughts or beliefs or reactions to pleasure or to, you know, that indoctrination type of stuff.

Ann Russo She/her (33:41.164)
Yeah, totally. No, totally, right? Because of intergenerational trauma.

Kristin (33:43.111)
Yeah.

Yeah. So like, is like, is this, is it my response or is it like my great, great, great, great, great.

Ann Russo She/her (33:50.222)
Yeah, it's probably both. It's probably both, right? So, and then as you move away from that, then hopefully, you know, if you have children or decide to have children, you know, then that is another generation removed from that.

Kristin (34:09.989)
Yeah. Yeah. I think right now I've just got my dog. But I mean for the greater you, for those that have children. Let's talk about sex, baby. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That's another thing too. It's like the, you know, the certain like frameworks or pathways that were

Ann Russo She/her (34:13.79)
Hey,

Ann Russo She/her (34:19.658)
Exactly.

Kristin (34:36.623)
seen as like the quote unquote more ideal ones or expectations in certain like pockets of culture or societies or stuff like that too. Like to have children or to have the full woman experience or stuff like that. Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (34:51.752)
The pressure, like I know I haven't personally really felt that pressure too much, women around me for sure, especially around me. my goodness. The pressure is just, or I just say women sleeping with men, maybe that's better, but the pressure around that is just unbelievable that there's something wrong with you. It's, it's really unfortunate.

Kristin (35:01.735)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (35:09.799)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kristin (35:19.249)
Yeah, it's like, because I'm mother in lots of ways. I'm mother to book into the world. I'm mother my dog. I'm mother myself. I'm the da, you know. Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (35:23.148)
Yeah, really. But what about for themselves is like the key. That's the most important right there. Bringing yourself up to a space where you love yourself and take care of yourself. Then you go out into the world that way.

Kristin (35:40.903)
Yeah, like moving from a place of love and not for love is like something that just has been keeping, it's been keep coming up the last few months, I would say. Or like that's been my intention. It is just like, okay, I want to move from a place of love with other people and interactions versus like a more needy sense of for it. Like if I can fill my cup up and then it'll overflow and ripple out. Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (36:00.834)
Yes.

Ann Russo She/her (36:05.23)
100 % and it's it is difficult work. It's doable, but it is difficult because you have to really like how am I treating myself? Why am I treating these other people better than I would treat myself? Why can I forgive them, but I can't forgive myself? Like it's really looking at those things.

Kristin (36:20.605)
Mmm.

Kristin (36:25.971)
Yeah. I I noticed it come up in my dog's relationship. just got, he's brand new. He's like six months. And so, but I noticed that, you know, for a while I was like, just like rolling out of bed and immediately going to him. I was like, wow, this is such a mirror. I'm like, where did this show up in my other relationships that I was so concerned about their needs before taking care of my own? And I was like, just like, oh, I'm like, there's like a lot of, I kind of want to do a podcast on.

Ann Russo She/her (36:47.31)
Thanks.

Kristin (36:51.891)
puppies or dogs or just like the lessons that I've learned through that journey. Because it's like it's been an initiation in of itself.

Ann Russo She/her (36:59.918)
I it. have a dog, she's 16 and there's a lot of, she's got a lot of work attached to her lover, but there's a lot of work there.

Kristin (37:02.611)
Aww.

I would totally love to touch on too, know like the BDSM and kink and how that can play into like a healing dynamic or just even a fun explorative dynamic. Because I totally believe that conscious kink can play out and heal and be empowering.

Ann Russo She/her (37:35.79)
100 % you know it's

It kind of goes right along that line of the enthusiastic consent and the authenticity. And really, this is not like 50 Shades of Grey we're talking about. I mean, I'm talking about people that empower others, empower themselves. Right. And what I've seen a lot with my clients that are in those communities is there is a respect.

Kristin (37:43.4)
Mm.

Ann Russo She/her (38:08.75)
I do want to say reverence because that is really what I've seen. and reverence for others. the folks that I work with tend to actually be more in the submissive role, which you would many people assume is disempowered, but they tend to actually feel most empowered.

Kristin (38:12.531)
Mm.

Kristin (38:33.117)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (38:33.26)
because they're really the people that are controlling the scene and what's happening when it's done, you know, with respect, of course. So I've seen a lot of people work out sexual traumas and sexual abuses around kink and BDSM because they're taking their power back.

Kristin (38:37.181)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (38:41.149)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (38:52.081)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (38:52.256)
and these dynamics, you know, and I've also seen people feel, get stronger sense of self-worth and self-esteem. And I've seen, you know, make women turn into strong, powerful women as they are embracing different roles in the community. And I think it's awesome. I think it's absolutely awesome. So it's this is not about.

Kristin (39:09.51)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (39:23.054)
power and control down to the psychological component of harm. It's a play dynamic, a play dynamic of power and control. But really, everyone should be empowered in those scenes. So yeah, I see a lot of positivity around Kink and BDSM and also community, just community building too. And people are free to explore and be themselves.

Kristin (39:29.288)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (39:40.021)
Mm-hmm.

Ann Russo She/her (39:53.319)
You know, it's awesome. I just love the community. I love the community, love my clients in that community. I've never seen people so, like I said, just respectful of other people's boundaries. it's just amazing, you know? And I think we can all learn something from the community.

Kristin (39:55.463)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (40:06.311)
Mmm.

Kristin (40:15.123)
I mean, guess, well, the level of communication that you'd have to have to like, you know, prep for the session and like just cover all the bases is a lot more than it goes in depth. And if you're just going to, you know, meet someone and just like have a what? Drunken rendezvous? Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (40:38.966)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Because it's like the the drunken rendezvous doesn't correlate with all the safeties and securities and boundaries typically that it was actually like preparing to do the scene with somebody or you discuss what you're comfortable with.

Kristin (40:58.525)
haven't, yeah, yeah, I've been very curious about Shabari and having someone.

in like a couple of weeks. like, I know I want to explore that realm just for that. You know, in so many, I make so many decisions in my life and then just like that feeling of complete surrender and letting go too is like, oh, ooh.

Ann Russo She/her (41:19.128)
Well, hit me up if you know someone who is a teacher. Yeah, so we'll talk afterwards. yeah, maybe. Yeah, they're really great. So, yeah, for sure.

Kristin (41:24.581)
Awesome. Okay, yeah.

Kristin (41:30.855)
Yeah, I love that. I love that that realm can be applied for healing because I don't think that a lot of people necessarily associate those two or there's a lot of preconceived notions around it.

Ann Russo She/her (41:39.82)
So many and around the non-monogamy part too. mean, you know, when I went to advertise my CEU training, I was attacked like nobody's business on social media, which was really interesting because, you know, I post a lot of controversial things, but it was like the things people thought that I was doing was just unbelievable. And that was just a course. was just a course to see there.

Kristin (42:02.973)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. I know I was curious about those because I wanted to like plug on but I was also like I want to take some of these courses. I'm like I'm not a there. I've you know toyed or like been weighing out like do I want to stay in like a coaching kind of capacity or do I want to go back to school and become a therapist. Like I've been like kind of vacillating or like weighing out my decisions. And but I'm like

Ann Russo She/her (42:15.598)
Thank

Kristin (42:31.901)
Can I take these courses because like they sound great.

Ann Russo She/her (42:35.778)
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Join the waitlist. I have the second one's on its way, but those are the courses that have been approved for credits for therapists, but anybody can take the courses. Yes, absolutely, because I think that these are just important things for people to have some understanding about. Like you said, a lot of preconceived ideas that are just not true.

Kristin (42:39.6)
Okay, cool.

Kristin (42:46.195)
Cool. awesome. Okay, great. I just wanted to clarify that. Okay.

Kristin (43:01.349)
Yeah, for sure. And so what do you have any like a timetable or timeline when they're going to be available?

Ann Russo She/her (43:07.49)
I'm hoping to have, the one should hopefully be available within the next few months is just fixing the platform so it's a little more streamlined. And that's the one on non-monogamy.

Kristin (43:15.367)
Mm-hmm

Okay, cool. Because I'm looking at the understanding ethical non-monogamy, sexual health and religious trauma, healing from sexual trauma, and BDSM and kink. Like I want to take all of those. Yeah. So.

Ann Russo She/her (43:28.223)
You can to my website, you can just subscribe and as they're releasing I will, you'll get an email.

Kristin (43:35.281)
Cool, cool, sweet. Yeah, all right, because I'm like, this is just, I feel because I have, there's so much wisdom that I can, this is just my personal like, also that can be gathered from our wounds. And I have had like a lot of different initiations or wounds within the sexual realm and space. So I feel like the pin, you know, the,

The greater good or the meaning that I've assigned for it is that I can now help people or help other people walk through some of those paths or like alleviate some of the shame or that sort of thing. So it's like anything else that I can put in my tool belt will just like help support that.

Ann Russo She/her (44:03.822)
Yes.

Ann Russo She/her (44:13.288)
absolutely. And you know, I think there is something to having had some of those experiences. I mean, I know that, you know, I think people can do good work if they have it, but there is something about being able to really know what that is like and what that entails and what that healing looks like. like coming out of, you know, like a fundamentalist background, when that gives you an insight to that, that others just don't have.

Kristin (44:35.377)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (44:40.595)
Mmm.

Ann Russo She/her (44:42.006)
You know, so it's like the, so yeah, get, get all the tools, get all the tools, you know, cause it's hard to talk about some of those things. And that's a thing with my clients too. They have a hard time finding people that can relate to the religious upbringing. So the more people out there that have that experience, honestly, the better.

Kristin (44:45.713)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristin (44:53.713)
Mmm. Mmm.

Cool.

Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. That's something that I'm just putting in on like, okay, ponder that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, I love books and stuff too. And I know is your book, are you gearing up to launch it or publish it or is it available now?

Ann Russo She/her (45:07.438)
Yeah, yeah, seriously, there's lot of people hurting.

Ann Russo She/her (45:18.112)
It's not available yet. is has to go to the publisher by July. Yeah. Yeah. And then they will have to do their thing and then it should be released within the year.

Kristin (45:24.204)
Okay.

Kristin (45:31.347)
Okay, cool. Now, was like searching on Amazon for it and I was like, dang. Well, I can always update the show notes too to reflect that if you'll just let me know whenever it is available and I'll drop a like direct link to it. Oh, for sure. Because I'm like, I just want to amplify and like spread awareness and like grow, you know, offer alternative perspectives.

Ann Russo She/her (45:35.762)
It's coming, yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (45:44.384)
Totally, hey.

thank you.

Ann Russo She/her (45:57.614)
Yes, same, same. And that's the thing too, Kristen, you know, it's like I, even though I'm here talking about like open sexuality and non-monogamy and all this stuff, I still am 1000 % there for the person that says, I want to be absent. I want to be monogamous with one person. I'm very traditional. I'm there for that because of that's authentic to you. That's the whole point. Yeah, exactly.

Kristin (46:11.835)
Yeah.

Kristin (46:20.371)
Yes. One thousand. I'm not judging or shaming or saying that it's bad for you. And that goes across the board for me too. I'm like, what you're putting in your body? What's your, you know.

Ann Russo She/her (46:27.351)
Yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (46:30.892)
Totally, totally. Exactly. it's really being there for someone to understand themselves, not you make them or try to make them into what you think they should be.

Kristin (46:42.871)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and just like releasing judgment and kind of looking at life through that more compassionate lens. Love it. Is there anything else you want to drop in or add?

Ann Russo She/her (46:48.812)
Yes, 3%.

Ann Russo She/her (46:55.886)
Well, I'd like to invite listeners to hit me up any time. I like talking to people and seeing how they're doing. And if there are questions or concerns, I like to do research and create projects and to talk to folks. That's how the classes came along. So if they want to go to annrusso.org, they can send me a message there.

Kristin (47:10.951)
Beautiful.

Kristin (47:18.355)
Awesome, okay, and then the Instagram.

Ann Russo She/her (47:21.839)
It's also in think it's Andrew so else yes.

Kristin (47:24.817)
Okay, I thought I saw, I had the therapy website, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (47:28.434)
AMR therapy. Yeah, so I run a therapy practice out of California that offers a sliding scale and it's really geared towards marginalized communities.

Kristin (47:38.855)
Beautiful. Because I know that there's been a... I know some of my friends have stopped going to therapy because of like financial issues or and like and they're in like a tough spot right now, like mentally. And so it's interesting. that... So I really love that you're offering that.

Ann Russo She/her (47:58.518)
Yeah, doing the best. I wish we could do it free. And I do, because I feel like people need that support. And our team really is dedicated to being there the best we can. But we do live in California, so we have to make some money. Yeah.

Kristin (48:02.065)
Yeah.

Kristin (48:13.023)
yeah. Well, and like our energetic contributions like are valuable. But I actually had an idea this morning for maybe a like collection of stories or short stories. And I was gonna like drop it into this women's group that I'm in. Like maybe if we all contribute one and like make it into a book, like I'll put it on Amazon or something. And then we can donate the proceeds just to something. So whether it's like scholarships for therapy or scholarships for

you know, something just like maybe a way to give back that we weren't necessarily anticipating. It would just take like that essay or something that I'll make into a chapter and I can I know how to upload it to Amazon. yeah.

Ann Russo She/her (48:51.394)
That's amazing. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Amazing. I think we have, we need this right now. We all need this. Yeah.

Kristin (48:57.805)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, a lot of chaos in the world. Although I do like to subscribe to that. I think there's a Deepak quote that says, all great change is preceded by chaos. So I'm always trying to find the pearl or be optimistic. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Let me end this.

Ann Russo She/her (49:11.436)
Run with that.

Thank you.